Fisheries Committee on June 15th, 2006

[Robert Clark, Director, European Union Division, Department of Foreign Affairs]

Senator Milne and her parliamentary association members have engaged the Council of Europe several times on that very document. As a result of their interventions, there is a more balanced presentation.

But that is just the beginning of the process. That document, if it's ever voted on, would have to eventually get to the European Union authorities. They would look at any requests--

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Sorry, but can I interrupt you right there? You just mentioned the European Union. Now, from what I understand, both organizations are mutually exclusive, meaning that....

What bugs me or what concerns me about the Council of Europe is that these are member states. Two of those members, incidentally, are Norway and Russia, which have far more inhumane practices of seal hunting than we do, and yet we seem to be the victims.

[Robert Clark]

Norway and Russia are not part of the European Union--

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

No.

[Robert Clark]

--but the European Union, in discussions with members of the Council of Europe, and, if it came to that, in discussions with Canadian authorities, and also in discussions with their own European Union trade experts, would then be moving out of the emotional side of this into the international trade role side of it. For any member state of the European Union to be considering a ban, that member state would notify those intentions to the European Union in the first instance, and the European Union would respond.

The European Union, as is Canada, is very interested in a rules-based, multilateral trade system in which the specifications of GATT, article XX, the specifications of the technical barriers to trade agreement, are respected.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

By whom, the European Union?

[Robert Clark]

By the member states.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

It's my impression that many of these member states are circumventing anything like GATT, article XX, or whatever it may be. They're getting around it, and they're doing their own ban on imports.

[Norbert Kalisch]

Some of them are trying to. What we've noticed is that these initiatives invariably stall. They get to a particular stage, the statements are made, and there are attempts, but recently they haven't gone very far. We haven't seen anything concrete out of Germany. We haven't seen anything concrete out of Belgium in terms of regulations and actual bans. We have seen something concrete out of Italy, but that is not a law yet either; it's just kind of an intention.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

That's also worrisome. From what I understand, Italy is the largest importer of seal oil.

[Norbert Kalisch]

Of seal oil, yes, but not of seal products.

Just to reinforce what Bob Clark has said, it's a matter for the European Union to enforce trade rules on the member states. The European Union has sole authority on trade issues, and member states do not. The European Union itself could sue and could insist to its member states that they remove those kinds of bans.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Is it not the case that there is a petition being circulated within the European Union compelling all members to ban seal imports? And does it require only 50% of the signatures of the members of the European Union?

[Norbert Kalisch]

No, because the European Union, the EU, the European Commission, has a responsibility for trade, and I've heard of no such Europe-wide petition. I can't see the European Union countenancing that at all.

As a matter of fact, some of the countries, such as Denmark, on behalf of Greenland, which is not in the EU, and also Norway are making representations to the European Commission to fight these bans. So these issues are matters of debate and also struggle among member states in the European Commission itself.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Okay.

I want to commend you on some of the initiatives you've taken here, with the brochures and whatnot. In the past, we've seen images, the images we all know, splattered around the world in places like the Middle East and Asia--not so much Asia, but certainly in western Europe. The problem is that we have an abattoir, or a slaughterhouse, exposed to the open, exposed to the public. One English MP said to me, “You know, we have a park in my home riding in England where basically we slaughter deer. But if we walked in with clubs and killed them by beating them to death, there would be an international uproar.”

I understand what you're saying by arguing the technical aspects of a seal pup that is...you know, the hemorrhaging has stopped, as opposed to blinking, as the way to find out whether it's dead or not. But we should fight back with the “slaughterhouses of Europe”, as I call them, and say, “Okay, you don't like the fact that we utilize only 30% of the seal, but how much of the muskrat was utilized when you killed it because you wanted to save the dams in Holland?”

[Norbert Kalisch]

That's why, in our opinion, these issues are best attacked on the basis of rational arguments and also in terms of rules-based systems. That's why we're attacking this in the WTO, where it's incontrovertible that you can't....

If these bans are put in place and Canada takes action against that, obviously they will argue that they have good reason for imposing a ban, but in terms of the trade lawyers it will not stand up. That's why we want to go that route, because the emotional route, especially in Europe, in our eyes is very difficult to counter. They have a different perception of the environment and nature.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

I'm not sure I agree, because I think we can. The emotional issue for us is one of preservation, conservation, and environment. If the Brigitte Bardots of the world don't want to kill one seal, understood; the emotional argument will not work. But if they are conservationists like the World Wildlife Fund, who say it's an issue of conservation, we can say, look, someone has real seal fur and another person has fake fur. The one wearing real seal fur is from an animal harvested, a renewable resource; fake fur is made from a petrochemical, meaning it's a non-renewable resource.

There is an emotional argument in that. Yes, it may be technical, but it's saying that we, as Newfoundlanders and Labradorians and Quebeckers along the gulf, are in sync with the environment. We won't obliterate this herd just because it's at $110 a pelt. When we use our ancestry, which I used last time, and it was somewhat successful, I would assume, there was a certain level of understanding. I told them, look, I'm not a sealer, but I certainly do understand that we are in sync with our environment, and conservation is of the utmost importance.

So I think there is an emotional aspect to this.

[Norbert Kalisch]

Well, I would hope you're right, and consequently all of our efforts in Europe—we put a lot into this throughout the year—should work. But certainly the opinion of all of our posts and all of our missions, who we've canvassed, seems to go the other way. They feel that the emotional argument would not be easy to win, or would be practically impossible to win.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you, Mr. Simms.

Monsieur Blais.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, gentlemen.

The seal hunt issue has been around for about 30 years in Europe, if I'm not mistaken. Could you explain a little how it has evolved and where we stand today, so that we can understand this dynamic. We're part of a dynamic that has gone on for a number of decades. I don't believe the attitude of the people who oppose the seal hunt will change a great deal overnight, but I'd like to understand it more clearly, because, if I understand my opponents, I can fight them more effectively.

[Norbert Kalisch]

It's true that it's been going on for about 20 years, but I believe there have been two phases. In the first, people opposed the hunt for baby seals, the whitecoats. After that hunt was prohibited in Canada, protests declined in Europe. However, in the past four years, there's been an increase in protests; I don't know exactly why. Perhaps it's because the hunt is more extensive. In any case, protests are quite strong today, but not as strong as they used to be.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Could it also be related to fund-raising by organizations like the Humane Society? From what I know, that organization collects a lot of money; we're talking about $80 to $100 million. Those amounts of money have been collected just in the past few years. Is the resumption in protests related to that?

[Norbert Kalisch]

That's quite possible. We also have other problems of that kind in Europe, with regard to logging practices in Canada, for example. The NGOs definitely project the worst possible images of Canada in order to get more money in Europe; that's quite true. Even today, they are still using pictures of the baby seals we used to hunt, whereas that's no longer done. It's true that they're trying by any means to get money.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

As you probably know, we're planning to send a mission to Europe. We've had talks to determine what countries we should visit. You're an expert on the subject. If you had the choice to take a one-week trip, apart from going to the Council of Europe, what countries should be visited on a priority basis?

[Norbert Kalisch]

I wouldn't go to Italy.