Fisheries Committee on Jan. 31st, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Mr. Blais, you have seven minutes.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Sullivan, I am certainly prepared to give the seal hunt file a chance, but you are the one running with it. You mentioned in your presentation that you have to run left and right, up and down and all over the map to meet so-and-so from such-and-such a department in this, that or the other country.

I have the impression—tell me if I am on the wrong track—that at the moment you are like a firefighter trying to put out fires that have been burning all over the place for thirty years or so. Some have consumed everything in their path and we have to rebuild, some are just flaring up, now here, now there.

You referred to legislatures that are passing new resolutions. Things are even happening on different fronts at the Council of Europe, the European Commission and the European Parliament.

I am not at all convinced that what you are proposing is actually an action plan to address the situation. I am looking for an action plan that mobilizes a group of people, not just you alone. Otherwise, you are going to become exhausted doing all that running around.

I would like to know your opinion about the way I see the situation.

[Loyola Sullivan]

Thank you.

I've had a team with me on each of these occasions. On this last trip, for example, and on my previous trip I've asked to have experts with me. I personally requested Dr. Garry Stenson, a senior marine mammal scientist who spent 22 years on the file and who was consulted by EFSA as an expert in the world—probably more expert on the seal file in the north Atlantic, I would say, than perhaps anybody else in the world today—who accompanied me on these files.

I had people accompanying from DFAIT and also from Fisheries and Oceans. I wanted to get people around who, whether in resource management or in science, and in particularly in selling this, I think, on science, had a lot of credibility. We had a team of 16 who went to Europe last year, with Jean-Claude Lapierre—I think from your constituency—and Leo St. Onge, a Quebec sealer. Industry came; government representatives came. We went and looked at different aspects that each of us would touch on.

When something is started, to take the fireman analogy, you have to go to the core of it; not try to deal with the symptoms but deal with the cause. So we tried to go to the core of it, to the people in the process who intend to legislate, and to put it on the table with these people—the departments, the senior guys, the deputy minister equivalents who are going to advance it, and the parliamentarians and the ministries in those countries that are going to put it forth—to say, this is not correct. It's sustainable, it's humane, it has a very strong socio-economic value.

We do that. We have a team; we go as a team. I am not a lone person on these ever. I've always had a minimum of three and a high as a delegation of sixteen.

We look at it strategically, at what is most strategic. It's not always, I guess, best to publicly release strategies. We deal with NGOs and other people who have spent hundreds of millions of dollars on this issue.

But I will say we are looking very seriously at this file. We are looking at avenues whereby we can stop the train that started on this issue. If some firefighting has to be done, I call it putting accurate information in the forum of legislators and parliamentarians so that they can make an informed decision, not an emotional decision because their constituents tell them “this is what we want”.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

First, let me remind you that a trip with a team of 16 people, such as you have just mentioned, happened only once. One group trip is not going to make the difference. I think we agree on that.

Could you tell me about any action plan of yours that requires a large team. I really would like to know where you are coming from and where you are going, so that I can appreciate the efforts you are making. In that sense, someone like you, with your budget...I have already told you that your budget for a task like this is ridiculous and I continue to say so.

In the next few months, what is your plan of action to deal with this situation using a team approach? The Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans is a member of the team, after all.

[Loyola Sullivan]

Thank you.

I guess the strategy has been multi-pronged. Number one, it's to strike alliances with like-minded countries within the European Commission that would get us support for getting a resolution within. We have Denmark as one of the European communities. Sweden and Finland are there; I've met with them. I know that those countries, Sweden and Finland, have written to the European Union asking that no ban be instituted unless there's a scientific basis to do so.

These countries have responded and have worked internally. I don't think it's practical to expect a country within to start clamouring in a public forum, but working within, with like-minded people within and like-minded people outside, such as Norway. When we went to Italy, Norway came, and Denmark came, and we sat down with the delegation from Greenland—I met with the minister of fisheries in Greenland last week—to get a joint effort before the Italian committees in Parliament on those countries.

That's the like-minded approach. The other approach within the EEC countries that are spearheading this is to focus on the countries that are looking at legislation and to put forth facts to them that refute information they have that has been put on an emotional basis.

A third prong is a challenge: that if they're going to do something on a ban that is contrary to their obligations under the GATT and the technical barriers to trade positions of the WTO, we will challenge it as being a right to defend a legitimate hunt that's putting money into the pockets and that is a way of life, a tradition, a culture, an economic activity.

We have looked at that. As for the future, we're looking at a discussion, on the agenda tomorrow in Montreal with the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans and the aquaculture and fisheries ministers, of this issue. I spoke with Premier Charest two weeks ago on this issue before he went to Paris, and he said he was raising the issue with the Prime Minister in Paris.

We are looking at how we control the provinces together. The Province of Quebec has indicated they're very supportive of this issue—the premier has indicated he is very supportive—and Newfoundland and Labrador and Nunavut, which form over 99% of the sealing constituency in Canada. We're looking at how we could put on a combined effort, whether with parliamentarians on parliamentarians, whether with premiers or fisheries ministers in these jurisdictions, over the next while.

That's in process now. What should we do in March on the international day of protest? Probably this will come to a head in four or five months, with decision-making maybe in late spring in the European Commission. How do we deal with this? How do we respond when these decisions come into effect?

So it is a fairly comprehensive look at this issue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Mr. Blais, don't even look at me.

Thank you, Ambassador. You're doing a great job, and I expect you'll be invited back, because you're not going to get it all in this morning.

Mr. Stoffer, you have five minutes.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Ambassador, for taking the time to come to brief us on your journeys in Europe.

There's an old saying that when one door closes, another one opens. While you're battling the propaganda war with IFAW and all those other groups.... There's another saying that you don't let the facts get in the way of a good story, and IFAW and HSUS and those other organizations are very effective at pulling at the heartstrings of citizens in European nations. If Germany, if Holland, if Italy do instruct a ban, the only other legal way to do it is to force it through GATT and WTO discussions in that regard.

But you spoke about like-minded countries. Have you solicited the assistance of Russia, which also has a sealing concern going, or Spain, or Portugal? What is the position of the United States on all of this, as well?

[Loyola Sullivan]

The United States in 1972 instituted a ban on the importation of marine mammals, period, to the United States.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

But not for their own.

[Loyola Sullivan]

No, but for their own within Alaska. There's hunting occurring in Alaska.

In 1975 CITES followed the Marine Mammal Protection Act in the United States, and the United States did not institute a ban on the basis of humaneness. Theirs was on the basis of conservation. CITES was post-Marine Mammal Protection Act and it has not referenced seals as being an issue to be listed under CITES and there was no basis.

So on four occasions in the late 1990s and early 2000s, the Government of Canada made interventions at the highest levels of the United States to change that. They have been reluctant to undo or change what's been done. It's as if enacting legislation and coming back and undoing it is probably a lot tougher than doing it. I don't know what their reasons are, but four approaches have been made from the late 1990s to the early 2000s to have this changed, but they haven't been receptive to it.

So I think it's fair to say that the United States.... I'm going to be having meetings with the United States in the month of February on this issue.

With regard to other countries, yes, we've looked at strategies on other countries. In the Baltics there are numerous things under consideration at the moment. There are numerous other member states within the EU that are on the Baltic--right from Poland to Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, and also Russia.

There are other issues besides the like-minded, because it's seals today but it's something else tomorrow. Whether it's hunting wolves in another country or it's other species there, this has broader implications for member states of the EU--and we've been looking at it strategically to get support--because if the domino falls, it doesn't stop. There are serious other implications.

Certainly I think it's fair to say that has been a consideration, and it is under discussion, yes, and some meetings have been held on this issue already.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

My last question is--

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

A quick question and a quick answer.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Yes.

We haven't been successful in challenging the United States on their import ban on this. I have a feeling we may not be successful in Europe. But I notice in your report here that in 2005 it shows Hong Kong at 3% of exports and yet China a year later was 6%. It appears to me that China may be an emerging market for seal and seal products. Have you been involved at all in working with the provinces and Nunavut and the government in promoting seal and seal products in the countries of China and Taiwan and those areas as well?

[Loyola Sullivan]

Well, it's the companies that are involved in buying them. I met with all the companies. The companies were at the seal consultation process.

The markets now are primarily that the seals go to Norway, about 60% in this past year--and it can vary from 50% to 60% over the past two years--and Finland, about 14% and 19% respectively over the last two years. A lot of these end up in Russia and China. That's where they end up, because there are tanning processes that occur there. There's processing and some tanning occurring in eastern Canada. Three locations at least do tanning in eastern Canada now. And that's where the market is. While the point of entry could be Norway or Finland, in fact about 13% went in through Germany, was exported, and almost all of them are trans-shipped through Germany.

So if there's a ban there, it's all trans-shipped through Germany. And I indicated to the German government the obligations of the WTO, that the bulk is in Germany, the majority of what goes into the European Community is in Germany, and almost all are trans-shipped through Germany.

The Netherlands has said no trans-shipments through its ports. Belgium has indicated its legislation allows trans-shipments through its ports. So the European Commission has to get on one page on some of this also. We're very much aware of the destinations and very much aware of the dynamics.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you.

And some of us legislate the answers.

Mr. Keddy, we wait with anticipation. You have your seven minutes.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

Thank you, sir. I have no intention of allowing Mr. Loyola Sullivan to answer this question. I'm just going to talk.

First of all, Mr. Sullivan, thank you very much for coming in this morning. There were a couple of points made by my colleague that you answered directly, but I think you might have missed the point, especially with Monsieur Blais.

I think what Monsieur Blais was getting at is that when you go to Europe and take a group from the provinces, that's important, but it would also be important to take some federal politicians with you. Most of us have been there. We've been at discussions, at the Parliament, at the Council of Europe, and have been involved in this issue for several years, and would be happy to help in any way we can.

The other point I want to raise is that we saw a video here last spring by Raoul Jomphe, I think his name was, who actually attended the hunt, invited by the Humane Society of the United States, and found a number of inconsistencies that occurred there. The Humane Society of the United States, in one instance, found a seal that hadn't been killed immediately. Basically, instead of allowing this seal to fall into the water and drown, which would have been the humane thing to do, they actually pulled it out of the water so they could watch it suffer a long and lingering death on the ice, but they could get it all on camera. He has recorded this. It's an actual fact.

We're not dealing with a group of people here who have any intention of playing by any set of parameters or rules. These guys are modern-day terrorists, and we have to point that out. And I'm being polite. I really think in much stronger terms than that.

So I think that film should be purchased by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, and it should be put on the BBC and on public television in Europe and allow the Europeans to see another side of this story. It was a terrific film.

We know we're behind the eight ball here, and we know we're not going to convince the Europeans overnight. You mentioned here, a minute ago, like-minded countries. When we met with the fishery committee from the Council of Europe, in 2006 I think it was, the members there from Ireland and from Scotland had voted against the seal hunt. Once they listened to our delegation, they said, “Wait a minute; we made a mistake.” The members from Spain and from Portugal were onside and are actually looking not for a hunt, but for a cull, in their own countries.

So there are like-minded countries there. You mentioned Denmark, but Iceland is certainly much more like-minded. Scotland is, again, on board. I know you're looking at these opportunities, but I can't stress it enough, especially that film by Mr. Jomphe. It should be on public television in Europe, however we can get it there, because there are two sides to this story.

Now I'm going to give it over to you, and I know I won't get another question in.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

He had half the time on the question, and you have the other half to answer.

[Loyola Sullivan]

I will keep it short.

We aired the film by Raoul Jomphe in Amsterdam. We had a public opening there and invitations. We showed My Ancestors were Rogues and Murderers, a film done by Anne Troake. We did it in Italy recently, with 20 different media there, and a media forum occurred in Italy on that issue. We have been using those avenues.

We've been preaching that this is the Humane Society of the United States, basically an NGO out there concerned with humaneness, and they pulled the seal back onto the ice to video it for another 25 minutes or 45 minutes, a suffering seal, when there was a sailor, Jean-Claude Lapierre, no distance away, from Îles-de-la-Madeleine, who could have come over and put the seal out of its misery, but no one has ever mentioned to a sealer to do that. At that type of event we speak that, we say that, we correct that.

We do have in Scotland Ian McCartney, who was a minister there. He was one of the drivers between the ban in Europe from Scotland on this issue. I got very good support from a group, members of the European Parliament, with a Scottish person who was very sympathetic and understands this, who I met just recently in Brussels, last week, and I consider an ally to advance it.

It's kind of difficult to talk about strategies in a more public forum. An in camera forum here I think would accomplish a lot more and make you more informed, because I don't want to talk about aspects. That's like going and strategizing with two teams, and one team is out in the public giving out their strategy and the other team doesn't. It's really difficult in the session to do that, and I want to be honest and open on this process.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

I have one more question, if I could just ask it, and I have about a minute.

On the recommendation on bleeding, that recommendation is easily enforced, I think, for the sealers using hakapiks. However, most of the sealers use rifles, and if we don't differentiate there.... Ninety-five percent of the hunters are shooting those animals from 50 to 100 metres away and they do bleed out, especially, as you mentioned, with expanding ammunition. But it's not easy to jump off that boat, run across the ice, and bleed that seal immediately, so we have to be careful, if we implement a rule like that, how it's done.

[Loyola Sullivan]

Yes, we're very much aware of that in resource management. We had independent veterinarians participate in our consultation with sailors. A lot of these issues did come up. And that's not an expectation. When you reach the seal and you notice the seal is not dead, you have to then kill that seal and then you follow the process.

There are situations to deal with that, and there'll be no regulations or conditions of licence that would have them doing the impossible, but only what's fair and reasonable as soon as possible within the timeframe there. No one should risk their life. Human safety is the number one issue. The humaneness and the state of the animal is secondary to human safety.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you. And having you, Mr. Keddy, on time, with eight seconds left to go, is amazing.

Ambassador, thank you for your time here this morning. We realize that it's short, but it's very informative.

There certainly is a great interest around the table in regard to the seal hunt, and we certainly want to reserve the right maybe to call you back at some future date to have a more detailed discussion and everybody have the opportunity to go through a two-hour session. That's maybe something we could look at down the road.

I'd ask you, if you could, to make some closing remarks. One thing I would ask is whether in your travels you have had any discussion on anything we could do from a legal aspect to deal with the people who are protesting against the seal hunt. At any time has anything been discussed as to how we could address that from a legal aspect?

As I've said, with your wealth of knowledge on it, one thing I have to admit is you never know what the definition of “short” is. So with that, I ask you to make some closing comments.

[Loyola Sullivan]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I said months ago that there has to be a law against using false information to earn money. I've asked to have that pursued to get a legal opinion. I've been told they're looking at it. I haven't seen an opinion on it. There has to be something on trying to dupe the public into giving money to do something and spread false information on a better cause. There has to be consumer protection surrounding the issue. I don't have an answer for that now. I've requested that, and I feel strongly that something has to be done about it.

I will say in closing that I'd certainly be only too delighted at any time to appear before the committee to answer any questions on this issue. It would be helpful, I suggest—that's your prerogative, Mr. Chair, your committee—that sometimes an in camera meeting would help in getting a lot of information out. It's not always good to tell the world what you're going to do.

Somebody could spend hundreds of millions of dollars, when I have an operating budget just over half a million dollars. That covers staff and an office and transportation. I have to depend on resources elsewhere. I'm only too delighted if members of Parliament can accompany and participate in this process. We've invited provincial legislators. We welcome anybody--out of your budgets, of course. I don't have a budget for that.

And dealing with parliamentarians I think is important, because from my experience of being there for 15 years and dealing with parliamentarians, I think it's positive to be able to talk to them on the basis that you understand where they sit. I welcome that and any future opportunity to discuss this further.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you, Ambassador, and certainly we'll take you up on that.

Okay, we're going to adjourn for now.

Thank you.