Fisheries Committee on March 6th, 2008

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I will now ask you a question based more on interpretation than facts. How can we explain that the chair in question was not influenced by your comments, or your concerns, and that he was inspired to a larger extent by other concerns? My question aims to determine what your efforts were. How did it work? Do you believe you didn't make enough of an effort? Do you feel that ending up with a text like that is a failure?

[John O'Neill]

No, I don't feel it's a failure. This is a draft first text, and in it the chair has basically put the wants and desires of almost every member, in trying to get consensus on some aspect of the text. In doing so, he has put in many things that Canada doesn't like, that the European Community doesn't like, that developing countries don't like, that India has great problems with, and that Brazil has great problems with.

I'm talking about the text in total, including the fisheries text. It's almost as if the chair threw everything in the pot and stirred it up and now the negotiators will have to sort it out. That's what we will do in subsequent meetings.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

In your presentations, you referred to texts dealing with prohibitions, but above all with income support and infrastructure. You did not mention the part dealing with fishing vessels.

Is that simply an omission or is it because that is not necessarily part of Canada's negotiating priorities?

[John O'Neill]

The prohibition on the acquisition and construction of vessels is certainly part of the text. We believe that anything we do have in Canada is in the nature of small-scale fishing, in support of small-scale fishing, and we hope to cover that off through the exemption we're looking for and demanding in the next revision of the text.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

In reality, you represent at least three departments, if not four, but are there four departments involved in all of that? How does it work at the departmental level? Is there an interdepartmental committee? You must surely have to report everything you do to the ministers or to the representatives of each department? How does that work?

[Gilles Gauthier]

Let me give you a general idea of how we work. Of course, we have a manager of negotiations, who is the assistant deputy minister of the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade.

I am his assistant manager of negotiations, beside being in charge of a specific file. We share the work according to the files involved. There is a manager of negotiations for agriculture and there is also one for regulations. Thus, we have a negotiation team. Of course, the minister in charge of international trade is the Honourable David Emerson, to whom we report. He, in turn, also consults his colleagues, such as, for instance, the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, the Minister of Agriculture or the Minister of Industry. Thus, we are working on an interdepartmental level, and we are bound to observe the negotiation mandates and they are given to us by cabinet.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Mr. Blais, we'll get back to you.

Mr. Stoffer.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you very much, gentlemen.

Mr. Gauthier, you had said that these negotiations are ongoing. When is the drop-dead date by which there has to be an agreement?

[Gilles Gauthier]

Actually, there is no such drop-dead date.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Good. Okay, that's good then. So talks are ongoing indefinitely.

[Gilles Gauthier]

That's correct, but of course people will want to achieve a result at some point. It's a question of when there will be consensus to move to that final decision.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

And the final minister who signs off on this is the trade minister, Mr. Emerson. Is that correct?

[Gilles Gauthier]

Well, as a whole, it is Canada that....

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Yes, but he is the one minister who actually says “Okay, we're done, this is it. We agree.”

[Gilles Gauthier]

With the appropriate support of his colleagues in cabinet, of course.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Right.

With regard to indigenous exemptions, both professors agreed that there should be indigenous exemptions when it comes to these talks, not just protection of some aboriginal programs.

Will Canada be arguing for indigenous exemptions when it comes to these fishing talks?

[John O'Neill]

We have not, as yet. The programs that exist in Canada for aboriginal fishers are of the nature of programs in support of small-scale fishing. The rationale that we use in demanding such an exemption is the fact that we have indigenous fisheries and we need to cover those off some way.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Why not just ask for the exemptions?

[John O'Neill]

We can certainly ask for anything, and that may be something that's palatable and something that we can explore.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

I hope you explore it well.

The other point I have is on the scenario I used the other day. If we want to reduce our fishing effort within Canada--so Canada does the buyback program, and I buy out all my colleagues here with government money to get them out of the fishery, yet I remain as the fisherman, and now I have access to that resource and in many ways that's a benefit to me because my competition's gone now--would that buyback program be considered a subsidy?

[John O'Neill]

I think the missing link, from what I can see of the transcript from last week, was with government money--

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Yes.

[John O'Neill]

--and there was a debate between the two witnesses.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Yes. They were divided on that opinion.

[John O'Neill]

Depending on how the government money you're talking about is structured, it's very likely, yes. Unless it involved loans at truly market rates, then it is a subsidy.