Fisheries Committee on Nov. 21st, 2007

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good afternoon, everyone.

I fully support the statements made by my colleagues concerning the importance of these matters and of everything you underscored earlier. I would like to discuss another problem, which ties in with climate change. As you are aware, given the phenomenon of the higher tides associated with fierce winds, the work to be undertaken is much more major and it risks becoming even more so over time. I have never seen a wharf that has not been attacked by the elements. It is thus that, over time, wharves deteriorate further and further.

We must not forget that without massive and rapid intervention, this infrastructure risks disappearing. It is in such a state that it will simply have to be replaced or else abandoned for safety reasons. That is another factor that, unfortunately, cannot be estimated in financial terms. It however impacts upon the situations that we are seeing at present and that we will be faced with over the coming weeks and months.

In conclusion, I would like to hear from the representative of Quebec. You will, I am sure, understand my particular attraction to Mr. Legresley.

I have already had the opportunity to ask questions with regard to the fair distribution of funding for small craft harbours. As you are aware, year after year, some 80 or 90 million dollars are allocated for the work to be done. These funds are of course distributed in accordance with a certain formula. I would like to hear what the representative from Quebec has to say about this way of doing things.

[Luc LeGresley]

With regard to storms, in 2005 and 2006, 40% of the budget for Quebec was devoted to dredging. We have a budgetary envelope of approximately 2.5 million or 2.6 million dollars. I am sorry, but I do not have the exact number. In 2007, 50% of the budget was devoted to dredging. In 2008, 60% of the budget for minor capital expenditures will be devoted to dredging. Imagine a 2.2 million dollar envelope of which 60% are taken up by dredging, precisely because of bad weather. This information could be confirmed by the Director General for the Quebec region. There therefore remain 40% of the budgetary envelope for minor projects, and minor projects only. There is not much left for the maintenance of the 52 fishing harbours.

We also face another problem that I am not sure exists in the other regions: that of the estimation of costs. There is at present in the Gaspé region a harbour that is undergoing repair work. The submission is 30% higher than Public Works and Government Services Canada's estimation. Imagine what is left over in Quebec. There is not much left over. Given the dredging and rising costs, there is not much money left for Quebec.

With regard to the budget allocation process, I can tell you this. I have sat on the National Harbour Authority Advisory Committee since 1999-2000. This matter is quite sensitive for all the committee members. However, it is true that in 1999 or 2000 the budget was cut and the budget allocation method changed. What happened as a result of that? Quebec lost a million dollars that year. Since the year 2000, Quebec's budget for minor projects has been cut by one million dollars. Since then, we have been trying to get more money. Why? Because we have been hit with storms and dredging is constantly increasing. With the storms we have recently had, it is quite frightening.

For your information, a study was done on the fishing harbours in Newport. Public Works and Government Services Canada did a study. In the study, it was determined that the breakwater was adequate for dealing with the storms to come. When we charged Genivor, an independent engineering firm, with carrying out a study, it estimated that the present breakwater is insufficient for what we expect to see in the future. Some $100,000 to $150,000 should be invested to ensure that the breakwater meets the demands the future holds. But the breakwater remains unchanged to this day. Proof of this lies in the fact that the last two storms inflicted such damage on the breakwater that it is falling apart. This despite the fact that Public Works and Government Services Canada had said that the breakwater would hold. Such is not the case. Additional monies must be invested in order to protect our wharves during storms.

The budgetary situation in Quebec is threatening the program. It is impossible to meet the needs of harbour authorities when 60% of the budget is taken up by dredging.

There you have the situation as to budget allocation.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

If you will allow me, I would add that this is not the first time that we have heard talk of volunteer fatigue. I have had the opportunity to meet with wharf and infrastructure administrators in my riding.

You talked about this earlier, and you might have further comments to make in this regard, but this fatigue is related to another phenomenon, that of the stress that you are subjected to given the frustration of fishers and others who use the wharves, and given the fact that you do not have enough money to deal with the situation. When someone somewhere lets off steam, it is you who are hit with it because you are the first responders. That must add to the fatigue element.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

We have time for a short answer, if you want to answer, Mr. Legresley.

[Luc LeGresley]

You are absolutely right. We could go over each one of the various elements, but in the end, there is a lack of money and a responsibility surplus. The situations brought about by storms and increased dredging create a lot of frustration.

Two weeks ago, the Quebec branch of the advisory committee met. The first thing the member from the Magdalen Islands told me was that he was stepping down because he could not take it anymore. In the Magdalen Islands, when someone decides to resign, it is the entire harbour authority that resigns. This member of the committee is predicting that the seven other harbour authorities from the Magdalen Islands will also resign. It is unthinkable; there is nothing they can do. It is simple: their hands are tied. They are unable to do anything.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you, Mr. Legresley.

Thank you, Mr. Blais.

Ms. Bell.

[Catherine Bell, NDP, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I really appreciate the passionate comments you made, Mr. Benson, and also, Mr. Legresley. I think you're absolutely right. It's unfortunate how volunteers are not being valued in our society. Basically the government is saving money on the backs of these volunteers. In real dollars, what you would have to spend on these people as employees of DFO or anyone else, if you had to pay them yourselves....

I think it's also at the expense of our small communities, where these harbours are in place, because I think what we're hearing of is a building up of frustrations and stress and anxiety and a lot of burn-out. So I'm curious, because when we met with the ADM the other day, he mentioned there were workshops put in place and that the issue was being addressed, but from what I'm hearing it's not being addressed satisfactorily and there's still not enough money going into it.

So for my first question, I'm just curious to know, from your perspective, if there's more that can be done or if there should be a greater infusion of money, maybe into hiring some of these people and making these paid positions. What we see with volunteers is that they are usually working at one full-time job and volunteering at another one almost full-time. I think that's probably part of the pressure that's put on people.

[Bruce Benson]

You're absolutely correct that hiring somebody to do some of these roles, such as financial statements and that, would really help. One person could do eight or ten or twenty harbours. It could really ease the burden.

I think the volunteer problem might be somewhat of a societal problem, in that there aren't that many people volunteering, and perhaps the government could launch a promotional campaign to promote volunteering in communities. That may be a long-term solution to some of the problems, but, yes, the frustration is there, no doubt about it, and something has to be done about it. More money would definitely help, but it's not a panacea. As I said, I think it's a bit of a societal problem.

I would like at this time, Mr. Chairman, to beg the indulgence of the committee. I just found out about this meeting last night, but two weeks ago I had another meeting set up with another MP for 4:30 today, so could I get David Tomasson to take my place here?

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Yes, sir.

[Osborne Burke]

If I may just add a couple of comments, they are working with us within the department on training and doing this regionally, as I mentioned. There is a harbour authority recognition program we're working on nationally to recognize volunteers.

You have to appreciate that in all these communities you see the same faces volunteering at the harbour authority, the fire department, and at the local legion or local hall or community group. I think somebody said earlier that we're probably some of the younger folks on the harbour authorities sitting up front here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

You wish!

[Osborne Burke]

We wish! Exactly.

We used to have hair when we became volunteers with the harbour authority—at least I did.

Yes, Bob.

[Bob Baziuk]

One good thing that's happening out in B.C. with the HAABC is that we build our annual conference around our annual general meeting, where we provide workshops on governance, marine law, and all of those other things to help people better themselves in managing these harbours and to be knowledgeable. So in that way, it has worked really well.

[Catherine Bell, NDP, Vancouver Island North, BC]

I asked earlier about what were the biggest issues for you folks, and the answer was maintenance and dredging and volunteers.

With dredging, is that part of the money for repairs or is not? Of this $2.2 million that you get, $1.2 million or 60% is for dredging. So how much does that set you back? I'm just thinking of this $475 million. Just to get up to speed, is that figure realistic given the amount of dredging?

We talked about climate change and silting, and so many other things. We are seeing more violent storms; I know we just had another one on the west coast. What impact are those kinds of things going to have on that dollar figure?

[Osborne Burke]

It's going to have a major impact on some of these harbours. You're seeing infilling storms. As I believe the ADM explained here the other day, there is a set number of dollars in the budget. I believe this year it's $99 million. Whether it dredging east, west, or in the centre of the country, that's coming out of that dollar figure.

You can appreciate that in some of these coastal communities and areas you're talking about mobile units coming in, very expensive dredging operations. You're not talking $10,000; you're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars. And where we're trying to collectively work together and maybe do a number of areas at the same time, trying to be creative and assist with small craft harbours, a major part of the dollars is the dredging that has to come out of that overall budget. That's all they have. When the dredging gets done, you'll see what's left in each region.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you, Mr. Burke. I realize there are other things you may want to answer, but to give everybody an opportunity here, I have to keep the ball moving.

Mr. Kamp.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for coming. For a few of you it's for the second time, and I appreciate those who haven't been here before.

I will share my time with Mr. Calkins, if there's any left over.

Can you help me understand the structure? I know you're one of 15 directors on this national body. Can you help me understand it from the top to the bottom? I assume you're there because of a role you play within your region in some sort of leadership capacity. When we go beyond that, you each are a part of some harbour authority, I assume. Are you a volunteer member of that harbour authority? Are you employees? Let's start there.

[Osborne Burke]

The National Harbour Authority Advisory Committee is comprised of 15 individuals from five regions, three from each region. We are here through either being appointed by the individuals back in our region or elected from regional advisory committees or associations we have. So ultimately the harbour authorities, the end users, identify individuals, and we have regional committees where we meet, and that feeds into the national one.

The make-up basically is that somebody has to be a member of a harbour authority. It could be active fishermen, it could be a harbour manager, or it could be a community volunteer who's on the board of directors. But they basically have to be a member of a harbour authority somewhere in the country to participate and to volunteer their time, up to and including this level.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

The normal harbour authority is composed of what?

[Osborne Burke]

Normally, whether you pick, 10, 20, 50, or 200 vessels, each fish harvester or each user in that harbour would be a member of the harbour authority, including possibly processors, buyers. In some cases, where it's a combination aquaculture industry, all those individuals would be members. The harbour authority would hold at least an annual meeting, and hopefully regular meetings, and conduct our business in day-to-day operations. At each annul meeting they would elect a board of directors. Basically, that is the typical operation. Some of the larger ones may have some paid staff. Some may have people paid to do a bit of wharf work on a very limited basis, but the vast majority of time is totally volunteered.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

The chairperson....

[Osborne Burke]

The chairperson or the president of your harbour authority is typically where the buck stops at the door in the local community. If you look around, he or she is probably chairperson or president of six local organizations.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

And that board, in some cases, hires a harbour master. Are any of you employed members?

[Bob Baziuk]

Yes, I am, Mr. Kamp.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Are you the only one?