Fisheries Committee on May 1st, 2008

[Michelle d'Auray]

Mr. Chair, there is no--as the question has been posed--budget line, so to speak, for sealing. There are a number of instances when throughout the department activities are supported in terms of research under science; support to undertake fish management plans and surveys; discussions with the industry and stakeholders; support to the actual sealing activity, the hunt itself, either through search and rescue, icebreaking, and sometimes even taking some ships.

We also have a significant investment in terms of international activities with the ambassador, Mr. Sullivan, who I believe has appeared before the committee a number of times.

So there is no line item per se, but there are a number of instances throughout the department and with the coast guard when would say there is in fact fairly significant expenditure made in a number of these areas.

What we do not do is fund the activity per se, as we do not fund the harvesting activities of fishers commercially.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

I think the misinformation campaign out there must be combated in some way, shape, or form. One of the suggestions that was relayed to me was that maybe for every person who goes to Europe or comes from Europe--because this is where the focus is right now--there should be some information relayed at customs, a pamphlet or an information sheet talking about the realities and the facts of the seal hunt. I'm just offering that suggestion.

My last question is on the turbot quota and the 1,800 tonnes of turbot off the coast of Labrador and off of Baffin Island up into the Davis Strait that were allocated to Barry's fisheries. The minister allowed a sale of that quota to Clearwater Seafoods. It was all in the water and they just took that turbot and allowed it to be sold to another processor or harvester.

Were any conditions attached to that transfer, that there had to be some local benefits, some processing of it within Newfoundland and Labrador? I have a lot of communities with some turbot plants that could have certainly used a portion of that. How did this happen that you could take 1,800 tonnes of turbot in the water, just transfer it, and a company gets $30 million? That's what some of the stories have reported, anyway.

[Michelle d'Auray]

I believe that the requests for transfers were done under the Atlantic fisheries policy and that these were enterprise allocations that could be transferred under that policy. I don't think there have been any requirements with regard to landings. That is not in fact a regulatory capacity of the department.

I don't know if Mr. Rashotte would like to add anything to that.

[Barry Rashotte, Associate Director General, Resource Management Branch, Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

Just to clarify, it was 1,900 tonnes and the transfer involved two companies. You mentioned one of them. There was another company from the Labrador area, I believe.

As the deputy said, this is part of the existing system that has been in place for 15 years or so in the offshore fisheries, where the companies have gone to EAs. There are guidelines and restrictions on how they can transfer that among themselves, either on a permanent or temporary basis. Obviously, a permanent transfer would require a minister's approval, and in this case there was one. This was just business as usual and was allowed under the guidelines the deputy referred to.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Am I finished?

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

You are for now.

Mr. Blais, five minutes.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Mr. Chairman, with respect to small craft harbours, is it possible to review the required levels of funding over the next fiscal year? The last official projections pegged funding requirements at about $400 million and that was in 2004-2005. Since then, the figures keep changing. Are there any plans to review the financial requirements?

[Michelle d'Auray]

Mr. Chairman, there are no plans to review the requirements or do any kind of in-depth study. By extrapolating and doing some basic analyses of the extent of the deterioration of the wharves, we can get a fairly good idea of our financial requirements. We can adjust our figures on the basis of certain events or specific activities. We do not expect a new in-depth study to be done. We will simply extrapolate using the figures we already have.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

The deterioration of the infrastructures is due to two highly complex factors: climate change and changes to the fleet. It is relatively difficult to put a figure on this. To say that we need $550, $600 or $700 million really doesn't make much of a difference. Because you are a professional, I thought that you would want to review these requirements, since this is a priority for our committee. I would imagine that this is a priority for you as well.

[Michelle d'Auray]

Thank you again for your question. Without committing to do an in-depth study of the two questions that you and other members of the committee have raised, I will say that we have started to consider the impact of climate change. However, that impact cannot easily be translated into numbers. It isn't necessarily easy to anticipate what the effects will be.

Regarding fleets, further to a series of announcements by the minister in April 2007, the department began looking at fisheries management reform and how this impacts the size of the fleets. Because we are now starting to see the effects of reform, I think we will still need more time to come up with some figures, as they relate to climate change as well as fleet size.

If someone were to ask me if, within the next year, we will have done an-depth study and come up with a figure, I would have to admit that we won't have a clear idea of the financial impact. However, we could start to observe some trends.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Mr. Russell, my fellow MP from Newfoundland, also broached the subject of the seal hunt. I am very interested in finding out about the department's strategy and action plan for addressing the disinformation campaign. The actions of the department are being called into question. People are criticizing the department for being irresponsible and for mismanaging a resource, namely seals.

One of the new tools that we now have to counter this campaign is a film called Seals, The Movie. As it so happens, this documentary was filmed by a resident of the Magdalen Islands and co-produced by a New Brunswicker. If the department bought the rights to this documentary, it could eventually use this production to inform people about the seal hunt. While I think embassy officials can do a good job informing people, I also believe that we need some information tools. Pamphlets are all well and good, but they are not enough. We need visual tools, because we are fighting a war of images.

Have you considered buying the rights to this documentary? If so, where do things stand? If you haven't considered doing this, why not?

[Michelle d'Auray]

I believe we did consider doing this, and we discovered that the film rights were rather costly. However, I would need to get more information before giving you an exact answer.

The only other comment I would make, Mr. Chairman, is that this debate is, up to a point, one that is based on emotions. The European Commission and parliamentarians will need to come to an agreement by looking at the facts, at scientific findings, at how the department manages the hunt and how the industry is responsible for this hunt and its activities. These are the issues that need to be addressed, because it is never a good thing to consider commercial interests from an emotional standpoint. It is important to always look at the facts, at how the department and the industry manage the hunt. We are very confident that the steps that we and the industry have taken this year are sound and that they in fact address the concerns raised in various European Commission reports.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you, Mr. Blais.

Mr. Stoffer.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Another saying is that you never allow the facts to get in the way of a good story. The reality is that if Europe does impose a ban, even despite the best efforts of our ambassador or DFO, with pelts a few years ago at $90 and now down to around $30, if the market falls out, it's going to be very difficult to maintain the seal harvest as we know it.

So one of the concerns will be that these sealers and their communities, through no fault of their own, are going to suffer economically because of it. Are there any plans afoot—plan B, I would call it—that if the ban does take place and it has a devastating effect on the seal harvest, DFO or the advice from DFO to government will somehow appropriate some funds to help these folks mitigate their financial losses?

The same question can apply to the west coast. If, indeed, the salmon runs are as poor as they appear, an awful lot of sporting operators and commercial fishermen are going to lose an awful lot of ability to earn some money. Will there be any assistance at all planned for those people in that regard?

[Michelle d'Auray]

With regard to the first part of the question, I would say we are convinced and working very hard to preclude a ban. The ambassador has been before this committee a number of times, and I'm sure he would be willing to appear again as he undertakes another series of meetings in the next couple of weeks. We have not contemplated any measures because we are not contemplating a ban.

With regard to mitigation for any fishery where we have resource allocations, reductions, we are not contemplating any measures at this point for compensation of losses.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you.

Mr. Da Pont, I personally want to thank you and the minister as well for hauling Paul Watson's ass into Cape Breton. He deserved it. Their mission is not to monitor the hunt; their mission is to kill the hunt, period. So good job on that.

On that question regarding the investigations that are ongoing with the incident in the gulf, is the union involved at all in terms of not only protecting the interests of the coast guard crew...? And I know, speaking to some of their families, that they're very concerned about this. That's the last thing they ever expected to happen. But is the union involved in these investigations and discussions as well, as an equal partner in terms of the role you play as well?

[George Da Pont]

Again, thank you very much for the question.

Yes, there is some union involvement, but not in the investigation per se. One of the unions, the guild that represents the officers, has provided the officers with legal advice and support, as has the union representing the crews. In fact I went just a couple of weeks ago to meet with the crew with John Gordon, the head of the Public Service Alliance, and with Mike Wing, the head of the component that represents the crew. So there has been significant union support for the crew in the situation.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you.

Mr. Kamp.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for coming today.

Understanding these numbers is a little bit elusive sometimes, and I would appreciate your help in trying to make sense of them. Let me just start then with the biggest number, which is the approximately $1.768 billion. I think I understand how you got there. You take the main estimates, and you add what is identified in plans and priorities, and then you look at the most recent budget and see what might possibly or probably be added from those commitments, and I think that's the figure you come up with.

I'm not sure I see anywhere here in your document what that compares to for 2007-08. I see a comparison of main estimates to main estimates and even the plans and priorities number compared to last year. If this is what we think we will probably spend in this fiscal year, what did we spend in the last fiscal year?

[Michelle d'Auray]

If I may, I think the final numbers for the expenditures in 2007-08 are still being compiled. We will have them, I would imagine, fairly shortly. They are generally published in the public accounts.

I would say, if you're looking at a basis of comparison in terms of planned spending and estimates for last year, there is a significant increase in the order of probably close to $200 million, assuming that the supplementary estimates are also accorded to the department between the mains and the final planned expenditures that we would be looking at for this fiscal year. It's probably just under a $200-million increase, I would say.

Mr. Hegge?

[Cal Hegge]

The only thing I would add is that if you look at the report on plans and priorities on page 12--and the deputy is quite right, the final figures aren't in yet--it shows the planned spending figure. It would include the supplementary estimates A and B. Our total planned spending figure for 2007-08 is $1,721.9 million. It wasn't reflected on the presentation I provided, but it is in the report.

[Michelle d'Auray]

And then if you add the elements that would be decreased and then increased, we end up with a net, probably, once we take all of the various adjustments, in terms of an increased capacity.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

I think in your presentation and in the other documents it says that some of the increases in operational spending are going to be assisted by some decreases in certain areas--cost efficiencies and so on. Can you just explain a bit more what that process is, what some of those areas are that are going to be decreased, and how they might affect programs that we see on the ground?

[Michelle d'Auray]

I would say at the outset that in terms of program changes, the only elements with regard to program changes would be with regard to some of the activities under international fisheries and governance. But under the 2008 budget, those funds were reconfirmed, so while they will show as a decrease in terms of the planned, they actually will be reinstated as a result of the budget announcements and the supplementary estimates.

In terms of actual program delivery, I would say that would be the major change, per se, and some of the other elements are dealing with reprofiling. It really is on the operational elements of the department that we are seeing the shifts.

I'll ask Mr. Hegge to add to that.