Fisheries Committee on May 8th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

I'd like to call the meeting to order and welcome back our regulars again.

It's good to see you here. This will be our final session on estimates, committee members. We have the absence of Mr. Stoffer. He tripped or was tripped last night in the soccer game, so he's on the way to the hospital now to have things checked out. I saw him down in the lobby earlier this morning. It wasn't something we all planned; it just happened.

[An hon. member]

You're sure it was the soccer game?

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

He may want a study into that before this is all over, but anyway, we'll see.

My understanding is that we don't have any opening remarks this morning. We're going to go right into questions. Would that be correct? Okay.

Just for the information of committee members, Minister Cannon's group is here. Minister Cannon is appearing here at 11 a.m. They need us out of this room at 10:50 to prepare for that. We also need about 20 minutes to devote to committee business before we adjourn. So I would ask all members to keep that in mind while we're proceeding this morning.

With that, I'd like to turn the floor over to Mr. Matthews, I believe, who will kick us off this morning.

[Bill Matthews, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

Thank you very much. I don't know if “kick us off” is a good word this morning, if one of our colleagues is injured. Last year Mr. Simms was injured at soccer, so I think we should cancel the members' soccer game. It's interfering with committee work.

I just have a couple of quick questions, Mr. Chairman.

On the small craft harbours issue, I think a week or so ago, in answer to a question from one of my colleagues, Ms. Dansereau indicated that the small craft harbours recommendation list, I understood her to say, had gone to the minister. And then on Tuesday the minister appeared and indicated, or at least I felt that he indicated, that he had not yet received it. So could we have some clarification? I know I am getting calls now, as I'm sure other members of the committee are, from harbour authorities who are wondering when there may be some announcement about small craft harbours funding for reasons we quite regularly allude to--the short season and so on in our province for doing work needing to be done.

Could someone clarify where it is? Is it at the minister's office, or hasn't it reached there yet?

[Claire Dansereau, Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

Thank you, and thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you also for the opportunity to come back and answer further questions. We'll do the best we can.

Often in our language we talk about things being with the minister, but in fact they're with the minister's office, as the minister said. And there's often, at that point, back and forth that goes on between the department and the staff to make sure the materials are as they should be.

So the announcements, we believe, are imminent, or the approvals are imminent. I can't give you a precise date or time, but we are working on it collectively across the department.

[Bill Matthews, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

Thank you very much.

I have another question. I have a harbour in my riding that's in need of some dredging. I initially contacted Transport Canada, and they've come back to say that it falls under the coast guard or small craft harbours. I believe they said coast guard. So since Mr. Da Pont is here, I wanted to ask him about that, because it's an entrance to a harbour where there has now been a buildup and so on, and there have been some warnings issued by navigation people. I met with the harbour authority a few weeks ago and tried to pursue this issue. Of course, I originally went to Transport Canada, which I thought was where it would rest.

I was just wondering if you could elaborate on that. There are some dredging funding provisions within the department. I know that small craft harbours does some, but they never have enough money to do what they're required to do. So is the coast guard in any way involved in dredging? Could you tell me, please?

[George Da Pont, Commissioner, Canadian Coast Guard, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

The coast guard used to be involved in dredging, but we do almost none of it now because of program review decisions made about a decade ago. The only places where the coast guard still does dredging are on the St. Clair River and the St. Marys River, near Sarnia, Detroit, and Windsor, where we have obligations under international treaties, and on a full cost-recovery basis on the St. Lawrence. But that's the only dredging we've done since the time of program review, when what had been a more extensive dredging program in the coast guard was ended.

[Bill Matthews, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

So you would have done nothing in the last number of years in Newfoundland and Labrador?

[George Da Pont]

No.

[Bill Matthews, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

How about you, Mr. Hegge, on that issue? What would be your budget, say, for dredging small craft harbours this year?

[Cal Hegge, Assistant Deputy Minister, Human Resources and Corporate Services, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

We don't have a budget per se that's allocated specifically for dredging. We consider the dredging requirements along with all the other competing demands for our budget.

If I recall, in previous testimony to this committee, we actually subsequently provided some information on dredging expenditures. If my memory serves correctly, we spend roughly $10 million for dredging over any particular given year.

In answer to your question, I guess if the harbour you're referring to is a small craft harbour, then it would be the responsibility of the program to do the dredging. But we often, as you know, don't have sufficient funds to do all the dredging that's required.

[Bill Matthews, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

Yes, it is a small craft harbour facility.

In addition to that, in fairness, there is a Transport Canada wharf there that is not being used any longer by Transport Canada. But the water depth of the channel is decreasing and it's becoming a concern. It's to the point where there has been an advisory issued, so I'm just trying to...because one department told me it was another department's, and I thought it was their responsibility. That's the kind of dilemma you find yourself in sometimes.

Since you were here, I thought I'd ask you those questions. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Mr. Byrne.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

I want to follow up on what Mr. Matthews asked and the answers that were given.

Basically what we've heard as a committee is that the department has provided a recommended list based on safety needs, based on repair requirements, and the safe conduct of fisheries related to small craft harbours. They've sent that recommended list, based on the existing budgetary allocations that are available to it. It's now in the minister's office, and the minister's office is debating with the department as to the appropriateness of certain projects versus others. In other words, they're actually involved in assessing whether or not the department's recommendations--based on safety and security of fishers and users and the needs of fishermen--were indeed appropriate. They're actually actively engaged in altering the list. That's basically what I've heard this morning.

[Claire Dansereau]

I wouldn't necessarily say altering the list. I would say the minister's office, as you know, receives information from a variety of sources. People write to the minister all the time. We use that information--which they will receive--to make sure the list we have is as accurate as possible. So it is that kind of a partnership, in terms of making sure we have the most appropriate level of information, to make sure our decisions are the best ones. So yes, there is that back and forth that happens, because different types of information come to different places within the department.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Could you assure the committee that the original list that was forwarded to the minister is based on the professional opinion of engineers, technicians, and those involved directly on the ground in the small craft harbours program, versus the final list, which is actually announced in dribs and drabs over the course of the next summer? Do we as a committee actually have access to the original list that was forwarded by the department to the minister's office? Would you make that commitment to us based on transparency and accountability?

[Claire Dansereau]

I'm not sure I can at this point, because we provide advice of all types to ministers, and it's considered to be advice to a minister.... The advice we finally give at the end of the day will be equally valid from a technical and engineering point of view. It's simply because there's new information that would come in.

I'm not sure I can, but I'm not sure I can't, give you that exact commitment. We can certainly look into what we can or can't do around that question.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

I think it would be very interesting, knowing that the professionals among the department itself, the engineers, supply this. You've got a heck of a lot more people on the ground throughout the country involved in the small craft harbours program, making these recommendations and assessing the safety and security needs of fishers and users of the wharf, of the harbour facilities; you've got an analysis of the demands. I'm really curious as to the whole process by which that could potentially change. Maybe your individual involved in corporate services....

If that were to be requested under access to information, would the original list be exempted by the department from a member as simply being advice to a minister?

[Claire Dansereau]

I don't think it's up to us to determine what can or can't be exempt, because the rules for that piece of legislation are fairly clear. So I don't know specifically, and I'm not going to pretend I know, but we can certainly get back to you with what the procedures are around that kind of information.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Here is another thing--on transparency. I think one of the issues of concern throughout Canadian fishing communities is the designation of certain quotas and allocations that don't seem to receive a whole lot of publicity or attention. There is a thought, a feeling, out there that there's a certain level of secrecy about allocations that are given to certain groups.

Has the department considered putting postings on a website, for public review, all allocations given to various groups? I respect the fact that enterprise holders have a certain right to privacy, but when a public resource such as a fish allocation is given to a not-for-profit organization—whether it be a community-based coalition, a union, or an industry organization involved in science—has the department considered, or would it consider, posting that information on the Internet--exactly who got the quota, how much the quota was, what species the quota was for, and how long they got it for?

[Claire Dansereau]

As you know, David has been in the department a lot longer than I have, and I'm going to ask him to answer that because he understands the history of what we can and can't do.

[David Bevan, Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Aquaculture Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

We have, as you're aware, a situation where the minister has absolute discretion under the law to allocate fish and provide licences. Generally that's done as a result of advice received and other considerations. Those decisions are then made public. We provide press releases, and there are quota tables on the website. But I understand you're looking for all the details, specifically what individuals hold quotas. Now, we can't do that in certain situations because of the Privacy Act, but in other cases, when it's co-ops or organizations, we may be able to provide that.

But we have information on the website. We have catch data on the website as well, but we are looking at updating all our information. Our website is being updated because it hasn't been user-friendly, but we are modernizing it. The decisions of the minister are made public.

[Claire Dansereau]

It's certainly our intent and our desire to make as much of this available as possible, because in my view, if information would be made available under ATIP, why not make it available prior to it being ATIPed? So where we need to protect privacy, we need advice on when and how to do it.

These are questions we look at on a regular basis, but as you know, everybody's moving toward more and more disclosure, where individuals would not be harmed by that disclosure.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Mr. Blais.