Fisheries Committee on May 13th, 2008

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, gentlemen.

First of all, I would like to inform you that, in the next few minutes, I'll have the opportunity to give you a little souvenir of Quebec, our national fleur de lys. Failing a flag, I'm going to offer you these pins.

I'd like to hear what you have to say on those two things in particular.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

I have some Canadian flags in my briefcase.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

You can give them away, if you want.

I'd like to hear what you have to say on those two points in particular. The first concerns the commercial fishery, and the second the way things worked for the divestiture program to succeed in the case of the three wharves.

Let's talk about the commercial fishery first. To my knowledge, there is still a commercial fishery in the region. What the witnesses have said to date gives the impression that that's not, or virtually not being taken into account in the development and future plans. I was wondering why. I get the impression that's also part of the heritage and that it has an economic and social value. In that sense, the fact that there is still a form of commercial fishery may represent a benefit for the community. It probably isn't as extensive as it was in the past, but it's nevertheless part of your history, of your heritage. It also has a definite economic value. I saw that there were still species of fish in your area. So I wonder why I'm not hearing that a form of development of the commercial fishery is possible.

[Leo Finnegan]

The reason you're not hearing it is because it doesn't take place from many of the harbours we've mentioned. Most of the commercial fishing takes place from Point Traverse. On the map, it is kind of a southeast corner of.... There are commercial fishermen there, and they fish for smelt and all kinds of small fish like that. In the town there is a commercial fishing realtor where you can purchase fish.

So the reason we haven't spoken about it is because it's not what it used to be years ago, and it doesn't take place from any of the docks mentioned--or very little does. Basically it is along Point Traverse and Long Point and those areas.

As I said in my earlier statements, in this county we have 500 miles of shoreline. We have all these little jetties and docks, but it is not one of those that we've been divesting.

[Barry Braun]

Mr. Chairman, I can speak to your second question, on the divestiture process.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I'm going to clarify my second question, but, before that, I want to get a better understanding. Is it possible to consider a form of association, relationship or collaboration with the people who are engaged in the commercial fishery?

[Leo Finnegan]

Yes, but the point I was trying to make is they don't come to us saying, “We have a problem with the docks in our area where we fish”, like at Point Traverse, or--I could show you on the map--at Indian Point and places like that. It doesn't seem to be a problem for them. So at the docks we've been talking about--for example, the one in Wellington, which you're going to see this afternoon--there isn't any commercial fishing at all that I'm aware of. There are tours. I don't know how many exactly, but there are people who take people out onto Lake Ontario to salmon fish. But those are charters. The commercial fishing all takes place in the east end of the county: Point Traverse, Long Point--

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

As regards the divestiture program, I'd like you to explain to me why it worked. I imagine there was a form of negotiation and that it was done by mutual agreement. I'd like to know why it worked. That would probably give you some possible solutions for locations where it's not working or working with difficulty. Why did it work, in your opinion?

[Barry Braun]

Certainly. I guess from our perspective, all of the federal properties consisted of simply a wharf and perhaps a boat launch ramp. So it was a matter for the municipality to determine. We knew we wanted the harbours, these federal properties. We believe they should be in municipal hands, because then we're in a position to control their destiny in many ways, and as the City of Belleville indicated, the option of not taking it and it possibly going commercial wasn't something the municipality wanted to see.

There haven't been any environmental issues, and as a result, for the most part, they have been simple. In all honesty, what has made the difference in our case is the relationship we've had with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans small craft harbours staff. It has made a significant difference, from my perspective. I'm the one who's dealt directly with each of the divestitures. I've been fortunate enough to deal with the same staff member from the small craft harbours program since the beginning. As a result--you create a relationship when you do that--there hasn't been anything that we haven't been able to overcome. It's really that simple, from my perspective.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you, Mr. Blais.

Mr. Stoffer.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, gentlemen, for appearing before us. Thank you for the cup; I appreciate that.

On the issue of the possibility that the divestiture may have gone the other way, prior to the municipality expressing interest in these harbours and wharfs, were there any private enterprises that expressed interest as well? For instance, did anyone come in and say, “Look, I'll take over all of that”? I know the previous presenters were concerned that if a private developer took over the wharf in Belleville or the harbourfront, it might restrict public access. Do you have those concerns as well?

[Leo Finnegan]

No. There isn't much industry here in Prince Edward County. There is a cement plant on the Bay of Quinte. You'll see that when you're at Picton today. They had their own dock. There used to be iron ore moved from Marmora to here, and you'll see an iron ore dock that's now used only to unload a couple of loads of salt each year.

That's about all the industry there is. The rest is all farming, so we really haven't had any industry persons come along who have had any interest in our docks.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

The other concern is, who manages these wharves for you? On Fogo Island, in Newfoundland and Labrador, there are five wharves and five harbours in the area and they're operated by one harbour authority. Do you have one harbour authority that looks after the five you're talking about, or is it done directly by you and the council?

[Barry Braun]

It's done directly through my department and through council. As I indicated earlier, we have a partnership agreement with the Prince Edward Yacht Club for the property in Picton Harbour. We hire a harbourmaster in Wellington who looks after the management of the docks and boat ramps there, but he works under a commission-type agreement we have with him for Wellington.

The other three sites are not manned. They are managed by our department, and the maintenance and repairs are done by the municipality. We are not collecting revenues from any of those three either. We do collect revenues from Picton and Wellington. The other three, for the most part, are free.

We had discussed putting in voluntary pay boxes, but we haven't done that yet, and we're not sure whether it would be worthwhile. To man any of those other three facilities and collect fees would simply not be cost-effective.

[Leo Finnegan]

Barry, you might mention the committee.

[Barry Braun]

The municipality has numerous committees, and one of them is the harbour advisory committee. It advises council and is made up of representatives who are stakeholders in one way or another. As an example, a commercial fisherman is involved in that committee, as are people who live on the harbour, boaters and people who have a background in harbour involvement in one way or another. The committee meets on a monthly basis and advises council on various aspects of all five harbours.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

The aspect of extending the piers to avoid dredging costs is very similar to a discussion we had on Prince Edward Island. I forget the name of the community that was discussing it, but they said if they could extend the piers, they could reduce dredging costs down the road. It's interesting that you have the same concern here.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Mr. Kramp.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Overall, your system and your programming divestitures went really well. Obviously there is a concern with some situations with Wellington. How about Picton? What are you looking at for timing on advancing the divestiture of Picton?

[Barry Braun]

We've had some preliminary discussions with DFO, and some engineering studies and plans were done for the improvements there, probably three to five years ago, in that range.

The staff at DFO are searching those for us, to resurrect them and take another look at them to see if they are still appropriate, and update them, if need be. We're hoping we can have the work and divestiture completed in 2009.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

I've been very pleased with another area, building partnerships, so it's not a complete liability for the municipality afterwards, so your ongoing expenses aren't going to go through the roof.

In Wellington, in particular, I see you've teamed up with the community and the Rotary Club, etc. Could you expand on the capacity of this partnership building, and do you have the same thing in other areas or is it exclusive to the Wellington area?

[Barry Braun]

I'll speak to it, and Leo, I'm sure, can elaborate. The relationship we have with the community and these harbours is primarily in Wellington and Picton. At Northport we have a relationship with the community. It is attached to a municipal park, and the local Sophiasburgh recreation committee and school board used the park on a regular basis. They have had some involvement in the improvement of the park and the dock area. However, this has been fairly minimal.

The partnership in Wellington has been a great one. For about four years, the Rotary Club and the municipality have been working together on the beach project, and they have spent in excess of $40,000. This does not take into account their labour and all of the in-kind services they're able to get from the community.

In addition, the Lions Club is involved in creating one major event—an annual dragon boat race. The West Lake Catamaran Sailing School just started there last year. They assisted in providing funding to the development of the harbour so that they could run their catamaran school, and apparently it's one of the few at that level of training in the province. They are a partner.

The Wellington Harbour Improvement Program Group is a group of people in the community who wanted to be involved in the development of the Wellington Harbour. It's a non-profit group, so they are eligible for various funding programs. We have been working with them, along with the rotary and these other community groups, for probably three years now. The Wellington Harbour Improvement Program Group has purchased a number of the additional slips and docks that we are now using to increase the number of docks in the harbour, so that we can accommodate more visitors and more use by the locals.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

With regard to Picton, you mentioned that some of the management of the harbour is handled through the yacht club. When you divest, or when the government eventually divests itself of that property, do you foresee the municipality continuing with the same procedure? Will it become municipal property managed by the yacht club, or would the municipality be looking at allowing the property to go to the yacht club? Where do you see the ownership and management taking place?

[Barry Braun]

I'm not sure. I believe our discussions so far with the yacht club have tended towards continuing the current arrangement. If at some time the yacht club thought they were in a position to assume the property, then I'm sure the municipality would enter into discussions and entertain this plan. However, due to the non-profit nature of the yacht club, my guess is that they would want to continue with the kind of arrangement we have now.

Wellington has been the focus for us for the last couple of years. Within a couple of weeks, however, we will be meeting, at the behest of the Harbour Advisory Committee, with a number of property owners to discuss the long-term development of Picton Harbour.

As with Wellington, we hope to get involvement by all of the stakeholders in the harbour and try to involve as many of them as we can in the long-term development. This process is just about to start.

[Leo Finnegan]

The arrangement we have there now is working, and we're happy with that. The owner of the Tip of the Bay plans to demolish that building and build some 44 townhouses, with docks and slips and whatever, so there will be change there.