Fisheries Committee on May 27th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

I call the meeting to order and welcome everybody here today. We're delighted to be in Port Hardy.

As many of you would be aware, we are the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans from the Parliament of Canada. We are in the process of completing a study on the small craft harbours program of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

Our study has included bringing people to Ottawa to hear from them there; hearing from people within the department; travelling to the east coast of Canada, which we have done; and now being on the west coast of Canada. We've heard from many stakeholders and are certainly delighted to be here today to hear from you also.

Our committee is made up of all the parties of the House of Commons, including the Conservative Party, the Liberal Party, the Bloc, and we're bringing along just a token of our appreciation for the NDP down here in the corner--just to make sure we cover all the bases.

We had a great time this morning. We visited a couple of harbours here in the area. I have to compliment you on the beauty of the area. I think we struck a great day for it, too, because many people we talked to this morning told us that we had a great day to tour the area. Certainly it's a great opportunity. A lot of the things that we see in our travels are similar in many parts of Canada, but as usual, there's always something that's a bit unique. There's no doubt there are some unique circumstances here on the west coast also.

I'd like to take the opportunity to recognize a former member of the committee, Mr. John Duncan, who has joined us here today. I'm sure many of the members of the committee know John from before. He was of great assistance in helping us set up here today, so we thank him for that.

Our process is that we have the opportunity to hear some opening remarks from some of the witnesses at the table, we open up the floor for questions, and then we go around the table and we do a round of questions, and we time slots for those.

The first thing I'd like to do is ask each and every one of you to introduce yourselves and the organizations that you represent, and then I believe it is Mr. David Schmidt who will start the presentations.

[David Schmidt, Director, Quatsino First Nation]

My name is David Schmidt. I'm here representing the Quatsino First Nation, as well as the Quatsino Community Society, which manages the Coal Harbour wharf. Out here we have many different hats. I sit as a director on the society and as a biologist for the band.

[Chief William Cranmer, Chief, 'Namgis First Nation]

I'm Chief Bill Cranmer, 'Namgis First Nation, Alert Bay, B.C.

[Pat McPhee, Harbour Manager, Port Hardy Harbour Authority]

I'm Pat McPhee, one of the harbour managers for Port Hardy.

[John Tidbury, Councillor, District of Port Hardy]

I'm John Tidbury, councillor, District of Port Hardy.

[Rick Davidge, Chief Administrative Officer, District of Port Hardy]

My name is Rick Davidge. I'm the chief administrative officer for the District of Port Hardy.

[Rod Sherrell, Chair, Regional District of Mount Waddington]

I'm Rod Sherrell, the chair of the board of the Regional District of Mount Waddington.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you.

In terms of translation and the piece of technology that's in front of you, channel one is English and channel two is French. We have a couple of people here who converse in French, so we'd ask you to use that. The translation's happening at the same time as you speak, so sometimes you may have to slow her down a bit. That's not good advice coming from a Newfoundlander, because I usually do about 70 miles an hour myself. But most of the time we try to have the translation happen at the same time.

With that, I'd like to ask Mr. Schmidt if he would make the first presentation. The floor is yours, sir.

[David Schmidt]

First, let me thank you for inviting me to this meeting. This took me kind of unaware, as I was only informed last week, so I wasn't exactly sure of the purpose and what I was supposed to say.

I'll start off by saying the Quatsino First Nation recently took over the Coal Harbour wharf through the divestiture program. That was in 2005, I believe. Since then, we've managed to keep things operational and just recently completed most of the major renovations that have been identified during the divestiture process. We've also managed to secure some outside funding to actually expand facilities and reinstall a fuel facility that had been taken out prior to our takeover.

When the Quatsino First Nation was first approached to take over the wharf--probably in 1999 or 2000--at the time we weren't prepared or set up and didn't have the management capabilities to do so, and it was turned over to another group. Unfortunately, they couldn't manage it themselves. Thus, in 2005 we ended up taking it over.

We thought this was extremely important for the north island communities, as it provides one of the only links to Quatsino Sound and provides a vital transportation link to the small village of Quatsino, as well as providing the Quatsino First Nation itself with an access point they previously did not have. The Quatsino are one of the only first nations without a major reserve on water in B.C.; as such, some of the history and traditions have been lost. So when the opportunity came up again to take over the wharf, we jumped at it.

To date, we have actually had no problems in dealing with Transport Canada or small craft harbours directorate. In reality, we're not exactly sure where we fit into the picture of the whole wharf community. There is some feeling that the wharf still belongs to the federal government on the public's behalf, and we feel it probably belongs to the Quatsino Nation. There is a kind of juxtaposition here that we're not really sure about. Clarification on that kind of issue is definitely required. We have some users of the wharf who aren't sure themselves and feel it's a free public dock for their own use.

Recently we attended a wharfingers meeting in Squamish, and while we received some answers there, it is still not exactly clear how we fit in the picture. That definitely needs clarification. If we're on our own, that means we have some serious digging to do to find funding to maintain and possibly replace the dock down the road when it does need replacing. If we still fall under the small craft harbours authority, then maybe we can talk.

For now, that's about all I have to say. Things seem to be going quite well for us.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you, Mr. Schmidt.

I believe Chief Cranmer is next.

[Chief William Cranmer]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity to present to you and your committee the situation we find ourselves in at Alert Bay.

I'm not sure if you all know, but Alert Bay is an island not even a quarter mile off Vancouver Island. It's split into two parts: one half of the island is the municipality of Alert Bay, and the other half of the island is the Indian reserve, the 'Namgis First Nation.

A brief history is that in 1958 the original Alert Bay boat harbour was constructed in front of 'Namgis Indian Reserve 1A. This was a small craft harbour, a DFO-supported facility.

In 1969 a new boat harbour was constructed by small craft harbours directorate, DFO, on the boundary between the village of Alert Bay and 'Namgis Reserve 1. The lease for the old Alert Bay harbour was abandoned by the federal crown.

In 1969 the 'Namgis First Nation had no option but to assume operational control of the old Alert Bay boat harbour, and it has consistently attempted to maintain the facility. Limited funding has periodically been made available from federal sources for maintenance of the harbour, but never for costly improvement of the original A-frame breakwater, a wooden breakwater that is really starting to fall apart.

In 1974 a ferry terminal was constructed on the east border of Alert Bay boat harbour, limiting the ability to expand the facility. In 1976 the plan to extend the new Alert Bay boat harbour to the west was not supported by the 'Namgis First Nation; the expansion would have blocked access and water circulation in a riparian zone and would have impinged on existing water lot leases.

In 1990 and 1993 major feasibility studies were completed for the rebuilding of the old Alert Bay boat harbour floats and breakwater, but no federal funding could be secured for implementation of the plans.

In 1994, $7 million in funding was supplied for the upgrade of small craft harbours on north Vancouver Island, but we could not access any of those funds for Cormorant Island.

In 1995 the new Alert Bay boat harbour was divested by small craft harbours, DFO, to the village of Alert Bay. Substantial levels of maintenance funding have been available to the facility. In 2001, $100 million was made available for further maintenance and upgrades by small craft harbours of DFO facilities. Again, no money was available for Cormorant Island.

To date, the 'Namgis First Nation is still seeking support for an upgrade and expansion of the old Alert Bay boat harbour.

The result is that Cormorant Island has been harmed by the fact that DFO small craft harbours facilities have not expanded since 1969. The lack of adequate marine infrastructure has limited the ability of the 'Namgis First Nation to reduce its crippling levels of unemployment, by building its cultural tourism and fishing industries. Substantial opportunities for ecotourism development are being captured by other local communities.

This is unfair to the 1,500 residents of Cormorant Island. Other north Vancouver Island communities have benefited from substantial levels of DFO small craft harbour financial support for harbour development and expansion. This double standard of support is not equitable or acceptable—which is not to say that we do not support the work being done by our surrounding communities.

As for solutions, it must be accepted that the existing Alert Bay boat harbour cannot be physically expanded. Cormorant Island requires a second small harbour to adequately serve commercial and recreational fleets. The old Alert Bay harbour should receive a substantial level of federal funding support for the replacement of aging floats and ramps and for the head wharf, and for the construction of a new rock breakwater. And the 'Namgis First Nation and DFO small craft harbours should immediately strike a working group to explore ways in which the marine infrastructure on Cormorant Island can be improved. This is an issue of fairness and community survival. We must act together now to do the work that needs to be done.

As I've said already, the economy of Alert Bay, Cormorant Island, is pretty bad. The only future we see is in tourism. Without a proper breakwater, we won't be able to do that.

We see all these ships sailing by. Some come in and have a look, then keep on going, many boats that could be tying up in Alert Bay. The present breakwater that's managed by the municipality of Alert Bay is basically full at all times.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you, Chief.

Rick Davidge is next.

[Rick Davidge]

Thank you very much.

On behalf of the District of Port Hardy, I'd like to welcome the committee to our community. Despite the rumours, it's always beautiful here on the north island.

Port Hardy has had a longstanding relationship with small craft harbours directorate. We became the first harbour authority on the B.C. coast in 1986, and prior to that we actually enjoyed a lease for a number of years with the department.

Since that time we've been involved with many different projects in the growth of our harbour. We now operate three different sites here in the community. I believe the committee had an opportunity to visit two of them. In 2000 we also acquired, through divestiture, the Transport Canada wharf known as the Seagate Wharf here in the community. The district operates a seaplane base as well.

Today we've embarked on a major project with small craft harbours directorate. They are investing about $3.1 million in our waterfront with new concrete floats that I believe you saw. As well, we've been able to go out and look for contributions to the project. Right now, we stand at close to $3 million in planned improvements that we're planning over the next two years.

All in all, it's been a great relationship, and we look forward to working with small craft harbours directorate in the future as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you, Mr. Davidge.

I believe our last presentation will be from Mr. Sherrell.

[Rod Sherrell]

Thank you very much.

I guess the first point I would make is that small craft harbours are really key to all coastal communities, historically, culturally, economically. I think Dave Schmidt spoke to a classic case of what happens when things break down and you lose that kind of facility.

Dave and I both came on the scene at about the same time that the divestiture of the Coal Harbour dock was in progress. It was clearly ill-planned, and the end result was that the entire area of Quatsino Sound lost, basically, a functioning dock, plus they lost the fuel capacity. It has been some time, but we're pleased to see that it's coming back.

I think that one of the key problems at the time of the divestiture, and Dave has really spoken to it just now, is this question of ownership. We were certainly given direction and indication from Transport Canada that the manner in which the divestiture would occur would provide for effective communication with all members, all stakeholders within Quatsino Sound.

This was the problem with the initial group that was given the responsibility for the dock. Essentially, they acted in isolation. By the time the Quatsino First Nation took over the facility, they had lost the fuel, the repairs were in considerably poor shape, and a number of things had happened.

We're pleased to hear and we've seen the progress that's occurred on the dock, but I think the Coal Harbour facility was an example of where all three things broke down. That is the historic value of the dock and the fact that it was the development of the settlement of much of the area for Europeans as they came here before the turn of the century, plus first nations. That was lost.

I think what has to be refocused on is that one of the key ingredients of the divestiture program was to develop a communications system with all stakeholders within the area. We're hoping, now that the Quatsino First Nation has had the opportunity to kind of get things back, that we get back to a point.... I think that's the first stage that we have to address, because we have equal concerns coming to us from constituents. I am the director for area C, which includes this area, and one of the key problems is that they're not sure of where and what is supposed to be happening.

I think that really goes back to the divestiture program in the beginning, because, frankly, the things that were supposed to be done weren't followed through. I don't think it served either my constituents or the first nations well, because it has left us in the position we're in.

I'm hopeful that out of these hearings, or whatever, this could be a key focus. How do you establish and maintain that all people who require these docks are part of the decision-making process, or are at least aware of what is going on?

I thank you for this opportunity.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you, Mr. Sherrell.

I thank you all for your presentations.

I believe our first ten-minute round will go to Mr. Simms.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

I will be splitting my time.

I had a conversation earlier with a gentleman sitting in the audience. His name is Jerry Arnet. He's a fisherman, and he had an interesting quote for me. He stated that years ago they had a two-billion-dollar fishing industry and DFO's budget was a couple of hundred million dollars. Nowadays we find ourselves with a couple-of-hundred-million-dollar commercial industry here and DFO's budget is at $1.4 billion. So in that lies truth--or not truth, but to me it smacks of something we hear a lot, coast to coast to coast.

So that being said, I have some quick questions. I'm going to go down the line, but I have questions for you individually. I also want you to talk about your relationship with the small craft harbours program, whether it is good or bad and maybe a quick recommendation for us.

Very quickly, you said your situation is going quite well. That was your quote, meaning that your revenues, I'm assuming, are at a fairly healthy rate. Is that correct?

[David Schmidt]

Just things in general are going quite well. Our revenues are quite small. It's not a very big wharf, so there's not too much to attract the....

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

So you're doing quite well vis-à-vis your relationships with the stakeholders?

[David Schmidt]

Pretty much, yes. We're lacking some facilities like fuel that would draw the people in. There is actually no restaurant, grocery store, or fuel station in Coal Harbour, so we're lacking the draw to the community to attract more people.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

What about your relationship with the small craft harbours program?

[David Schmidt]

We actually haven't had one until this last wharfingers meeting in December. We didn't actually know there was some support there for us or if we could even tap into it.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Are there any recommendations you'd like to make?

[David Schmidt]

I guess I'd recommend a better description of exactly the steps you can follow or what the relationships are, when you take the dock over.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

The divestiture process.

Chief Cranmer, you mentioned no expansion since 1969. Of the $100 million that was put in for 2001, you said you were denied funding at the time. So what was the reason they gave you for not receiving more funding for the expansion?