Fisheries Committee on May 29th, 2008

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Understood. The collection of quotas would be a lake quota, indirectly.

The last question I have then is dealing with the productivity of the fishery. You talked about pollution, and I know there are some concerns when it comes to Devils Lake and so on, insofar as.... This is getting a little bit away from small craft harbours, but again the whole viability industry will drive the policy of the harbour, if the industry remains viable. Are there any concerns that you as fishermen would like to bring forward or make the committee aware of insofar as any of those kinds of issues: pollution, water quality, and the viability of the fishery?

[David Tomasson]

Well, we're very concerned about any foreign biota coming from down south. Some gentlemen back here have been very active with Garrison. I mean, what is that, 20 years ago, when Garrison was a big issue? Some gentlemen back here fought hard to get Garrison off the table. Right now it seems to be coming back with Devils Lake. And, yes, we need lots of support federally on Devils Lake.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you, Mr. Calkins.

Thank you, Mr. Tomasson and Mr. Olson. Certainly it's a different perspective you've raised with us this morning on some of the issues here. We certainly welcome your comments, and thank you for your presence here today.

We're going to break now for five minutes to get ready for our next group. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

I'd like to welcome our witnesses for our second session this morning.

I believe all our committee members are back.

As usual, our plan is to allow you to introduce yourselves and make a presentation, and then we'll open up the floor to our committee members for any questions they may have of you.

To begin this session, I would first of all ask you to introduce yourselves and the organizations you represent.

[Robert Kristjanson, Lake Winnipeg Fishers]

I'm Robert T. Kristjanson. I'm speaking for the fishermen on Lake Winnipeg and for small crafts and harbours.

Before I start anything, I'll let him introduce himself too.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

We appreciate that.

[Allan Gaudry, Vice-Chair, Manitoba Commercial Inland Fishers Federation]

I'm Allan Gaudry. I'm the co-chair of the Manitoba Commercial Inland Fishers Federation. I'm here in place of Sam Murdock. He's our chairman and he sends his regrets, but he had another commitment today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you, Mr. Gaudry.

[Robert Kristjanson]

First of all, I would like to welcome you to the greatest place there is in the world. It's called Gimli, Manitoba.

What you see out here is the “Republic of Gimli”. We want our land back. And if any of you looked at it--I don't know if you all have seen it--it is there about the republic, the 12-year republic where we are.

I was going to give you a long song and dance about the harbour systems we have out here in front of Gimli, but first of all, let's do some history. I love history. I dole out history, because we formed here through history to do the same thing over again, and we haven't learned. It's funny how it is. It is in front of you, but you have to make the same mistake again--sometimes when you go out at night, you forget how sick you got the night before.

Going back to this, federal responsibility for Lake Winnipeg has been monstrous, and I mean monstrous. The first federal dock was built in Hnausa, 20 miles north of here. The reason it was built was because you had a representative of the government at the time. That's a good old story there. But it was the first wharf built.

When the Icelanders settled here, they built a small wharf out on the south side that they used. But the first federal dock was Hnausa. Then came...I'm not sure whether Gimli and Hecla were involved in the same thing. The federal people have run the harbours here since day one, and of course that's exactly what we want to see. Nothing changed, because there's no small fishing that can change that and make it into.... There isn't money around to do that.

The first harbour authority--it started in 1972 or 1973, when the small craft harbours program was started--was started in Gimli. The minister came from Ottawa, and the plans were laid down for what you see out here right now. At that time, for 11 years, I was the head of the harbour. For 11 years I ran the harbour, until it was turned over to the town.

In that time, what we had with the small craft harbours program was an excellent.... I can't put it into words. We got along with them 100%. Yes, we grumbled about one thing or about another thing. That's only a good marriage somewhere down the line. If you didn't have that, what would you have?

When the first harbour authority was started here, it worked very, very well, and it is still working as of today. You can go out the door and have a look at it. Even though I'm not involved, it's still working very well today.

What happened was that down the line, there was an awful lot of money spent east of here. The amount for western Canada was very, very small. The allotment at one time--I can look it up--I think was a million dollars, and for what we were deeded, of course, that was quite a bit of money at the time, when it was started in 1973. They tried to get some money.

I don't think you understand the makeup of a harbour. Our fishing family has been involved in the fishing industry, and so have a lot of other families here. We have been in it for 117 years. There isn't a fishing family in Gimli that didn't go north and build their own docks and build their own wharfs. They did that for 80 years, and some of them are still doing it as of today. At the time I grew up, as a young man, I was carrying logs out of the bush and building a dock. I'm not the only one. There were countless fishing families here that did the same thing, from one end of the lake to the other.

What you have that is greatly needed is more funding to look after small craft harbours. It is a marriage between fishermen and government, because fishermen don't have the amount of money to put into the facility, so you must have the government help you along the line. I know everybody says government can't do this and can't do that. Well, then you put people in that run it and know where it goes.

There is no doubt about it, ladies and gentlemen, without harbours you do not have fishing. Yes, you'd go back to building them and doing the things that we did before, and I'm quite sure something would be done. What you have nowadays is people who settle around the harbours, and what draws people to the harbours draws money to the harbours, draws fishing to the harbours, brings tax to the harbours, and that makes the world go around.

I don't know how far we want to delve into this. I'm sure you'd want to ask some questions, but to me, the harbours that are not being funded and need to be funded are not a great amount of money. It's a ham sandwich to you guys, but to the fishing industry, it's a monstrous amount of money. It's a monstrous amount of money to any man who lands his boat and tries to drag up his allotted quota onto the dock. A harbour with a dock to do that with is a wonderful thing. I know. I grew up with it all my life. It is the same with the dredging.

It is part of what makes Canada what it is. I stood in front of the ministers in Ottawa when I received the commercial fishing award and I said, “I just came over the biggest ocean. I just flew over it, the biggest ocean we have in Canada, and that started at Alberta and went all the way across.” When you look down from an airplane—and I'm quite sure you guys have—you're looking at water in every direction. In that water there are potential fish, and if there are potential fish, there is a good old fisherman somewhere along the line.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you, sir.

Mr. Gaudry.

[Allan Gaudry]

Good morning.

Welcome to Manitoba and the community of Gimli.

I'll give you a bit of background on the Manitoba Commercial Inland Fishers Federation.

We have 12 boards of directors that represent different regions in this province. We have one chairman, so we're a board of 13. We bring the concerns and issues of the commercial fishing industry to the table and discuss the issues.

As Mr. Robert Kristjanson explained, there's no doubt the harbours are in need. There is also their maintenance. We need more. We just can't stay at the status quo. We don't have a harbour in our community, in St. Laurent. We'd sure like to have one. The recreational boaters can't launch a boat. We can't launch any deep boats in our community, even for a rescue mission. We've had some challenges just to launch a boat to do a rescue mission on our lake. We have a shallow lake. It's only 20 feet deep. So there are issues with small craft harbours. There is a need for them.

The watersheds span a large geographical area, from 500 miles south of Lake Winnipeg--so they go quite a bit south--to 1,000 to the west, to the Rocky Mountains. So this is a large watershed that drains toward Manitoba and into Lake Winnipeg and also Lake Winnipegosis. Farmers in these rural municipalities have a tremendous amount of authority to drain their farmlands for production of crops or hay land. This practice needs to be reviewed, and that was identified at one of our meetings.

The agriculture industry needs to be held accountable for damages. This type of drainage is cause for concern for water quality. All the natural filtration, the chemicals, phosphorous, pesticides, and herbicides that farmers use on the field end up in rivers and lakes, having an effect on the spawning areas. We identified that as an issue. The fish spawn during the time when the drainage is filled. We see the water dries up after a few days, and the fish are caught up in the streams and have no means of returning to the lake and are killed off, along with the future stock. There needs to be gradual drainage instead of the fast-moving drainage we have today; however, farmers get upset if they see water lying in their fields for more than five days, so there needs to be a review of the drainage system.

There is a need for it, obviously, but at what point do we drain off all the surface water? Where is the volume coming from, and at what point are the lakes going to sustain that coming volume? I think that's also a concern we have to address. The large volume of water flowing in our rivers and in our lakes damages our harbours, and that's a cause for concern. During the winter, we notice the lakes and the rivers are still flowing at high capacity, and the frazil ice builds up, blocks the mouth of the lake, the water backs up and damages our harbours, damages our boats, and floods our roads. We've had these concerns the last four or five years, and it's not going to get better; it's going to get worse.

Those are some of the issues we have dealt with at the commercial fisherman's level. And we know there are challenges we face on how to get attention to this problem. Water quality is also gaining a lot of attention on Lake Winnipeg, but Lake Manitoba and Lake Winnipegosis have the same concerns. All the attention is focused here, but again, it all comes back to the idea that if the fishery collapses, the lakes don't support a fishery; then it's easy to point a finger at the harvesters. They're the ones who are easy targets: they overharvested and that's why there's no more fish in the lake. That's why we need the research, the data collected, to make sure the water has the quality to sustain fish, so at least we have some background to say the lake is at a point where it cannot sustain fish or the spawn in those lakes. At least the research needs to be done and the data collected. That's a great concern to us.

We're seeing a crisis situation with low prices in the fishing industry. Fishers are limited to what they can contribute, if anything, during the crisis. Collecting fees to use that harbour: how do you ask a fisher to pay $150 or $100 for docking while you're fishing? The money is not there, and it's a very difficult time to ask them to contribute to support the harbours. Even with tourists, how do you collect from the tourists who use the facility? There's nobody there to collect it, so it's very difficult.

Safety concerns. Entering these harbours during some windstorms...we need the harbours for safety reasons. There are many harbours that have been silted over the years, and dredging programs are needed to improve them. Boats coming in are running aground because of this problem. With high volumes of water, a lot of the silt and sediment builds up, and where it ends up is right at the mouth of the river, and all of a sudden boats are running aground. So we need a dredging program to help those fishermen get out and access the lakes. There have been a few cases where this has happened, especially if it's a drought year and the water in the lakes is down. We're going to see a challenge there in getting access to the lakes through the river systems.

That's about it. I think that covers some of the issues and concerns. And definitely the small craft harbours are in need; we need them. That's about it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you, Mr. Gaudry.

We'll begin our questions now.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

It's a beautiful day and a beautiful area and we're sitting here freezing.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

He would like the air conditioner reduced.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

You should have brought your gloves.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, gentlemen, for your presentations.

I appreciate the opportunity to ask a few questions. I want to say a word of thanks, and I think I speak on behalf of all committee members. We've certainly been enlightened and brought to a new perspective—many of us—when it comes to the conduct of inland fisheries, particularly here in the central and Arctic region and Lake Winnipeg and surrounding areas.

The picture that's being painted for me, not only from your testimony but also the testimony previously heard this morning, is that the dynamics of the fishery are changing. It's a high-value, higher-volume fishery; it's more professionalized, whereas it was once almost considered artisanal.

As you pointed out, Robert, families went away for periods of time and spent time in the north, but now it's become highly professionalized, where quality control is becoming a major issue and is being acted upon.

It has caused changes within the industry or the fishery. What you're looking for, if I'm reading you correctly—and you can both comment on this—is a response from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, the small craft harbours program, to be able to keep up with changing times. People are looking to home port more often, as opposed to travelling great distances to other grounds. You're looking to have new infrastructure developed in response to these changes, infrastructure that currently isn't on the books. In other words, the small craft harbours program currently has a policy only to invest in facilities that are currently the real property assets of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, small craft harbours, and they don't expand that footprint any further. In other words, they don't take ownership of any additional lands or water lots. They're keeping their investment strictly in the properties they own.

The other thing you're telling us is that you're looking for some transparency and consistency in the way funding is allocated, that the region is generally underfunded, considering the increase in activity and the value of the fisheries and its impact on the local economy. So I am just repeating back to you some of the messages we've heard so that you get a feel that we've been listening and are very aware of what you're saying.

Let me ask you this: where exactly would you suggest new harbours be developed? Is there a way you can communicate to this committee the location of existing harbours and suggest to us where new harbour activity should occur, in order to keep pace with the industry? As well, could you comment about the allocation of funding? For example, I think one of the messages we've heard right across the board, and heard very clearly in B.C. and other parts of the country, is that as harbour authorities and harbour authority associations, you're looking for some sort of transparency in the way funding is presented or allocated, and you want to know that if you're going to work with small craft harbour managers locally and they actually go forward with a presentation to Ottawa to actually get funding in place, it will succeed and will indeed be allocated.

Are you aware that the minister, for example, has a $5 million reserve budget that's not allocated to any one particular region, but is at his discretion to be able to use? Have you been able to take advantage of any of that funding, or were you even aware it existed?

[Robert Kristjanson]

I don't want to start in on you when you're halfway through this, but everything you're saying is exactly what the fishing industry and the people around the lakes.... It doesn't matter if it's Alberta, Saskatchewan—it doesn't matter where you go, they're all asking the same thing. It isn't any more clear what the mandate would have to be under the small craft harbours program.

They have a whole list of people who want some part of a harbour. You can't just all of a sudden out of the blue say, “I want a harbour down here, two miles, because I have my boat in there.” To throw money at something is not going to solve anything. That's not what we're asking for. What is being asked for here is if there is a harbour needed and there are fishermen there, for God's sake, give them a harbour. It doesn't take a brilliant scientist from anywhere in the world to understand that. But if there's nobody there, then don't build a harbour. That's all we're asking.

I think Mr. Kathan here and whoever is on his staff understand that right down to the last letter--asking for a harbour that needs funding or needs help or needs something. I cannot stand here and say I don't want a harbour because you're of a different colour, or whatever you are. I am a commercial fisherman and I'm damned proud of it. I didn't come this far to be that. At one time, they looked at you and said, “You're a commercial fisherman,” and their nose twisted around about three times. Well, that's gone. Now you are a harvester, and I am proud to be where I am.

What we are doing right here is talking to.... I welcome you here. Finally, we have somebody to talk to and understand what the people are going through. Little people, little shots like me, wherever you want to go, need a harbour to throw a fish box on, and if the people are there, for God's sake, build them a harbour. It doesn't take a whole billion dollars to understand that one.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Thank you.

Allan.

[Allan Gaudry]

To add to that, the fishers federation is going to have a meeting here shortly, in July. I'd certainly like to press that question to them. What are the needs out there? Where are the needs? Where should the harbours be? Where should a new one be built? Where is there one that needs upgrading or maintenance? I certainly would get that information, and maybe I could get a contact person so I could say that this came out of this meeting: there is a need for whatever—one, two, or five new ones, and we need to maintain ten, or there are twenty that need upkeep. I'll get that information for you guys. I won't have the dollar figures, but I'll give you some information.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

I know you're not a spokesperson for all Lake Winnipeg fishers or area fishers, but just to sort of get a handle now on the relative magnitude of this, do you need to double the number of harbours along the lake, or is it one, two, or three?

[Allan Gaudry]

I'll find out. If there are 41, somebody can give me some information where they are, so I can determine which community they're in, and then I'll go from there and find out what the needs are. Then I'll also find out where there should be more, if there's a need for a brand-new harbour. Our community, for example, St. Laurent, is in need of one. But when I pose the question to all the directors who know their area, their region, their needs, I could probably come up with some numbers.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

I think the committee would like to receive that information.

[Allan Gaudry]

Just let me know where to forward it to.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Bill, unless you have a question, my final question is on the harbour authorities' involvement in new capital construction.

Currently the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, the small craft harbours branch, has a limit of $40,000 on what they can grant a harbour authority to do local activities or construction projects. But that's the ceiling or maximum. If it's any more than that, the project has to go through the public tendering process. But up to $40,000 can be granted to a local harbour authority to conduct a small-scale project.

We've heard in testimony, or some points of view from various harbour authorities, that if that $40,000 figure were to be raised to $200,000, the harbour authority could use that money to buy materials and use local labour or volunteer labour to construct projects. In other words, the net effect or impact of that could be that the $200,000 could be equivalent to a $600,000 publicly tendered project, because if you're using money to buy local materials and using local labour to do these projects, you really will get better economics and better efficiency from the project.

Would that be of help to you? If that circumstance were created, from your own experience, would that be of any benefit to your organization?

[Robert Kristjanson]

Of course it would—anything that would add to the upgrade of any harbour. Right now when you need something, if you have money, you put a little into it and the small craft harbours program puts the rest into it.

What is happening at a lot of harbours right now is that you have to have fire equipment, you have to have pumps, you have to have all kinds of equipment in case of a spill, and all that's needed to deal with it. It's not just an ordinary harbour any more, where you put down two poles and a plank on it so you can walk on and off the dock. In the environment we're dealing with right now, it's completely night and day.

I understood when all of this started years ago, when they tried to divest themselves of these harbours, that it was the absolutely wrong thing to do. I stood up at most of these things. I am still a Canadian living in Canada, as far as I know, and I look to my federal government to help with the harbour and in bringing in fish, a product that's exported around the country. And anything that is brought to the table for that would help.

You'd have to sit down with the people from the small craft harbours program and sit there and see where we're at and what dollars this would bring. It's an excellent idea.