Fisheries Committee on Nov. 28th, 2007

[Léonard Poirier]

I could comment on that.

Climate change is having a significant effect on several areas. Once again, however, you need to look at our situation: we are in the middle of the Gulf, therefore we are extremely affected by storms.

Studies were undertaken by a group of specialists. There is enormous erosion around the Magdalen Islands. Erosion leads to an increase in siltation. The reality is that sand-covered areas will continue to increase. As I pointed out, we're noticing that we need more and more money to remove sand and to dredge. Future budgets must particularly take into account the situation of the islands.

Of course, as I stated earlier, this has an effect on safety, depth... Mr. Mario Desrape referred to this. Of course safety is becoming more and more compromised.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Blais.

Mr. Allen is next.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a few questions. I'm going to split my time with Mr. Keddy, if I happen to leave him some.

I have a couple questions for Mr. Poirier.

I have two questions on the $5 million per year that you talked about being needed. First, is that ongoing in every year for the foreseeable future? Second, would that amount include dredging, or would you see that as an additional amount over and above that amount?

[Léonard Poirier]

I was talking about the Quebec region. Without being an expert in the numbers, I would say that the Quebec region's budget is approximately 8% of the total budget. In absolute numbers that would represent approximately $9 million in all. From what I know, $3.5 million of that is for maintenance and operations.

The budget that is normally allocated to us is not sufficient to renew infrastructures. Therefore, it would take Quebec several decades to renew its infrastructure. We would never succeed because before we had a chance to rebuild some infrastructure others would have been destroyed and we would never manage to stay ahead of it.

Without being an expert in the numbers, I would say that for the Quebec region a supplementary amount of $5 million would have to be added to the regular budget which is $9 million. That is what I was trying to say. And given that other regions have needs, if we need an additional $5 million in Quebec every year then I would think that for the Maritimes an additional $40 million would be required. That is what we would hope.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you.

Ms. Eastman, you were commenting on the capacity issues and yours are a little different. Quebec had some good issues, but with respect to a lot of dredging and breakwaters. You were talking about a lot of end-of-life issues that you have in P.E.I., as well as capacity issues. You talked about having 92 vessels and then 200 at night, potentially, during the tuna season and normally 78 thirty-eight-foot vessels.

If you compare North Lake harbour to the other harbours in P.E.I., how does your congestion issue compare to the other harbours on P.E.I., and are you sharing an inordinate amount of the load because of the fishing and that type of thing?

[Sheila Eastman]

Yes and no. When it comes to tuna season, yes, probably we are sharing a bigger part of the load because of adjacency to fishing grounds. We do tend to get more of the tuna fleet. We do, North Fraser harbour does, Tignish harbour does, Rustico harbour does—all the North Shore harbours get them. So we do tend to get more congested then, but we also are in the spring.... What I said was I have 92 to 93 vessels that are mine. My harbour is actually built for 78 thirty-eight-foot boats. But in the springtime I have 93 that are mine. They call North Lake home. If I have a snow crab fisher from the Madeleines, from Quebec proper, or from New Brunswick come in to my port, my life has just gotten miserable because 93 is way overcapacity, and two more boats....

Tuna season is a carefree thing. When they come in, they come in at night. It's very congested and I lose a lot of sleep thinking about what could happen when you've got that many vessels in a harbour, but it's fairly orderly. If you have to actually physically unload product, I can't put two more boats in that harbour when I have 93 because I have nowhere to put anything.

There are a lot of harbours in the province that are very congested also, and going to become more so, because we are getting to the point that we have structures that are starting to be barricaded. You cannot put traps on them. Therefore you can't load your boat off them, and some of them aren't safe to tie your boat to. So it's not just North Lake. It's a lot of the harbours.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Mr. Chairman, just to follow up on that question, because of those capacity issues there, what kinds of model do you have? Obviously you have government revenue that comes into this. What are the other revenues that some of these fishers are paying in terms of using the wharf?

[Sheila Eastman]

Our harbour users that call North Lake home pay an annual fee, their annual berthage fee, and they also pay for any land they may have leased the building on, or whatever. Our other main source of revenue is through what we call transient fees. Those boats from Nova Scotia, Quebec, and New Brunswick that come and spend the night at our harbour, or in some cases months and weeks, pay a per-night or per-week or per-month fee that goes back into our coffers. That helps to offset some of the cost of having them there. It's nice to have them there—yes, they pay you a few dollars—but they're also using your electricity, your water, which we're paying for. Small crafts is not. We are one of the bigger harbours in P.E.I. and we do have a fairly heavy transient population so we do generate a little more income.

The problem with small crafts and the way the money is dished out is that what might be considered minor maintenance to me because I'm a bigger harbour would be major maintenance to someone who only has 19 vessels.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Mr. Keddy.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank our witnesses for appearing. I think most of us on the fisheries committee have a pretty good understanding of most of the challenges that our small craft harbours face, and that our harbour masters face in particular.

Listening to Mr. Desrape speaking about the Îles-de-la-Madeleine, I just want to revisit that for a moment. When we were out to the Îles-de-la-Madeleine, one of the challenges that we saw there if you're building breakwaters is the lack of rock. You would have some of those same challenges in Prince Edward Island. I'm quite concerned that you're dredging once a year, or an annual basis sometimes several times a year. It would make a lot more sense to do a business plan based on your tide and your currents, and where your sand is being deposited, and build your breakwaters.

Have you tried to figure that out? I know cost is a problem here. I would assume you'd have to build that out of cement and make your rock up out of cement. Have you considered that? Have you priced it out and done the business plan over a period of time versus what it would cost you to try to bring the rock from the mainland?

[Léonard Poirier]

I will repeat once again that this was not our choice: we were put on the map, right in the middle of the gulf, on the Magdalen Islands. This is a very good fishing area. We are dealing with the problem of sand deposits. Of course there are solutions. All of the port authorities are suggesting solutions to stem these sand deposits. We have no other choice but to remove sand and to dredge because there are many wharfs, that I listed earlier, that have not been finished yet. You said that there were solutions for most of them. Wharfs are subject to many waves and currents.

Jetties would help cut off part of the entrance. That would be a huge help. Most of the wharfs I mentioned need that. However, these are costly undertakings that require more money than the operating and maintenance budget contains. They require the type of money that comes from relatively large projects.

That is the situation in some cases and others are different. Some of them are almost unfinished projects. It's almost as if there wasn't enough money, despite the amount that was invested. It's as if there wasn't enough money to actually finish the projects. So we are simply asking that these projects be finished.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

I appreciate that. I guess the question I was asking was much more simplistic than that. Most of us who represent fisheries ridings have lots of examples of breakwaters being put in where you cause a siltation problem instead of fixing one. That's why it's important to have the study done ahead of time, and have a plan, and know where your tides and currents are and the effect of them.

I have a couple more questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

They have to be short.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

I'm going to run out of time, Mr. Chair.

I have one question on Mink River for Ms. Eastman. How many boats would typically fish out of that wharf?

[Sheila Eastman]

The fast answer is fifteen.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

And that would be typical of a lot of small wharves.

[Sheila Eastman]

It would be typical of the smaller ones, yes.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

Exactly.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you, Mr. Keddy. Time flies by. Sorry about that.

I'd like to ask our witnesses to take a break for a moment while we take care of a small portion of committee business. Mr. Matthews is going to return to the chair. I have to leave.

Committee members, on Monday we will have the deputy minister and her people here. On Wednesday we will present our first draft report, our interim report to the House. François tells me that he hopes to have it in our hands on Monday or Tuesday, before the meeting on Wednesday.

Are there any questions on any of that? Is everybody okay? Oui?

[An hon. member]

Ça va.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Just for clarification on a point we adopted earlier, if the government House leader announces that the last supply day will be three days from December 3, which is a Monday, we cannot do estimates. We can get the deputy minister here on a performance report, which means that the members can still ask any questions they want. But from a clarification standpoint, we can't do estimates if he announces that. The announcement is being made tomorrow morning, I understand.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Stephen Knowles]

It will be tomorrow afternoon, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Okay.

In the event of that, I'm going to ask that we adopt the following motion:

That, in the event the last Supply Day for the period ending December 10, 2007 falls on or less than 3 sitting days after December 3, 2007, the Committee rescind the motion of November 14, 2007 with respect to a study of Supplementary Estimates on December 3, 2007 and, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), proceed to consider on that date the Performance Report of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans for the period ending March 31, 2007 tabled in the House and referred to the Committee on November 1, 2007, pursuant to Standing Order 81(5), and that the Deputy Minister of Fisheries and Oceans be called to appear.

Go ahead, Mr. Blais.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

You read that very quickly. Just as it can be difficult to translate from the French to the English, the reverse can also be true. I hardly understood anything of what you said in English. Perhaps you could repeat that but slowly, please.