Fisheries Committee on April 1st, 2009

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Go ahead.

[Hubert Saulnier]

I have a document here. We met with Kevin Stringer last March in Moncton at the Maritime Fishermen's Union convention. He said the current fees were based on the market price in effect from 1990 to 1993 and they had nothing to do with the number of traps. He said that needed to be looked at and it would take three years to sort this out. Next fall a document will come out on different ways to set the fees.

So Kevin Stringer, who was the director general last year, has made it clear that these fees have to be looked into again.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you.

As you know, DFO allowed--it's been going on for a while--a buddy-up system in order to reduce your costs. So if you had 375 traps on a boat, another skipper could come on your boat with half of his traps and you could go together.

I just want to know, because you're so strong on the owner-operator, is the MFU in favour of the buddy-up system in this regard?

[Roger LeBlanc]

With the buddy-up system now, if two licence holders get together they're allowed to have 565 traps. We strongly believe that's a good system. The fear we have is that if our trap limit went down to 300 and the buddy-up system or partnership came in and allowed a full 600 traps--the way some of them are heading--it wouldn't be a fair fishery for the independents who only had 300 traps. They would be forced to buy another licence. The boats are big enough to handle this, so we're in favour of buddying up with a total of 565 traps, not a full set of traps.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

All right.

I have two other questions. We haven't heard yet today the effects that EI has on some of your fishermen, whereas in the Îles de la Madeleine and Prince Edward Island unemployment insurance was a huge issue for the fishermen. I'd like you to discuss the importance of EI to your fishermen as well.

The last question is on trust agreements. I've never heard an accurate figure of how many trust agreements there are in LFA 34. Do you have a ballpark figure, or if you don't know, could you put on the record how many trust agreements are out there? As you know, Minister Hearn previously put in a certain timeline, that after so many years the trust agreements have to end.

I'd like you, if possible, to give information on the EI and then trust agreements, if you don't mind.

[Roger LeBlanc]

I don't want to be quoted, but around the table, from what we've been hearing in setting this up, there are all kinds of trust agreements. There are, roughly speaking, about 300.

EI is very important to us. Our crew in some years will make $30,000 or $40,000, but this year if they get up to $12,000 to $15,000, they're going to be lucky. The families are suffering. It's too bad it has to come to money, but when the money is there, the partnerships aren't there. Family problems are a big thing for us. We really need the unemployment down here, because it's the only thing we have left. We don't have big industries, and fishing is their blood. If we didn't have EI, our fishery would be gone.

It's all right to say that you have a captain with a boat, but if you don't have the engine in the back—the crew—you have no fishery, because you can't go fishing alone.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Kamp.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll begin and then flip it over to Mr. Kerr or one of my other colleagues, if they have some questions.

Thank you for coming. I know it's a sacrifice to be here when you could be out making money. We appreciate it.

One of our witnesses this morning referred to “industry's failed structure” and was fairly negative about the way the industry is set up—the whole value chain. Do you have any comments on that? Do you think it's working and just needs a little tweaking, or does it need a major overhaul?

[Roger LeBlanc]

I fish and I sell every day. I believe I have a good product. It's a fresh product and it's supposed to go on the market every day. What hurts me in my stomach is that my neighbour next door goes out and holds them until that mighty dollar goes up. This year I got $3.25 for my lobsters; my neighbour got eight bucks, and the quality wasn't there. When those lobsters were sold at eight bucks, there was not one buyer at the door for them: there were a few. So he could sell them all. But that same day, he stayed at the wharf, and I had to fish lobsters for less than he was selling them for. The quality wasn't there, but he is saying the quality is there because of that mighty dollar.

The independent guy who fishes and sells his lobster every day is really being punished for that mighty dollar. So it's not a good system.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

You would agree, then, that there needs to be some kind of structural overhaul, whether it be a two-price system or a multi-price system or something that rewards quality.

[Roger LeBlanc]

Yes. Last fall we were in a downfall on the price and we had some conference calls. They said if we didn't slash fishing by about the middle of December we might be tied to the wharf, because they were dropping to two bucks. Surprisingly, those guys all held, because of that mighty dollar, and they got over eight bucks. So the trust we were getting between buyers and fishermen, which we hadn't had for a long time, was getting to be there, but I think what happened last fall is that it went back to the other side again.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Would you say there is overcapacity in LFA 34, for example, where there are almost 1,000 license holders, and in LFA 33? Do you think there are too many boats catching too few lobsters?

[Roger LeBlanc]

I don't think there are too many boats. In the first month we took too many lobsters out of the water for the supplies we had, and I don't know how you could control that.

We have one of the biggest areas, district 34, and right now the fleet is divided. The extra effort, where the lobster is coming from.... We used to come in at the wharf every day. Right now, in the last few years, most of them have lights. They fish 24 hours a day, whereas before you couldn't. I don't even think that's allowed, but they still have them and they keep fishing 24 hours a day. They get two crews aboard the boat.

That's what happened in the scallop fishery. We had a good scallop fishery. But right now on the effort that we're putting in, I do think there are too many boats. I think it should be controlled. As an owner-operator, I go out in the morning, I'm back at night, but most of these guys are out for four or five days. And it's not the same quality that I bring in. It's coming back that I'm being punished for that extra effort and that mighty dollar.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Okay, thank you for that information and that advice.

Just one final topic, and then I'll past it over.

The report from the FRCC has a section on compliance. It talks about some illegal activities that have been discussed in the consultations and the meetings that they had, like fishing out of season, illegal traps, undersized lobsters, possession of egg-bearing females, and so on. Do you think that's an issue in LFA 34, in your experience?

[Roger LeBlanc]

From my experience, it's a big issue. Like I said before, I'm a volunteer and I represent the best way that I can, and I believe in what I believe in. But this year, from what I believe in, and the way we lost the Sundays and we lost 25 traps, I was targeted the second day of fishing this year. I lost 72 traps overnight. Before I replaced those 72 traps and the stock, by law, and before I paid my crew, I had lost fifty grand, just by representing fishermen.

It's all coming back to the illegal fishing. That's why we were targeted. We have a lot of illegal fishing in our area, St. Mary's Bay, the Baie Sainte-Marie, as we call it. And DFO are clamping down. It's getting better, but still if you say something or you try to represent your fishermen, you get targeted.

The black market down here is a really big problem.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Well, that's interesting and good to know.

Mr. Saulnier, or Senator Saulnier, do you have anything to add?

[Hubert Saulnier]

Senator Saulnier, I like that. It has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Yes, it does.

[Hubert Saulnier]

Yes, in regard to the illegal fishing, there are so many of us. It's very hard. And southwest Nova, with all the islands all around the province, it's very, very hard for DFO to clamp down on every illegal fishing practice taking place. We know it's happening. To what extent, it's very hard to say. But we have to admit that DFO has taken steps forward to try to correct as much as they possibly can at this time.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Okay. Thank you very much.

There's time left, Mr. Kerr.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Thank you for showing up. I know you'd rather be on the water, but you're here. And you're being very candid, which is not a surprise to me whatsoever.

Just going back on the proposal that you talked about, with Senator Comeau--the other senator--I think what's important is to go back to last fall. We were meeting with a lot of you from all around the industry about what the issues were, what the pressures were, what we could do. Those were all very friendly, quiet meetings, I might point out. But one thing that came clear is they were very concerned about the crew on the boats, about EI, all that goes with that. They were very concerned about credit, and the province was moving to try to take some pressure off there. They were very interested in the marketing initiative, and that's mainly where the thrust was coming from.

I just want to point out that when some raised the idea of reducing the fees, it was your own industry that pushed back and said that rather than the money going back into the pockets, the money should be invested into something. Just so everybody's clear, this is an early proposal. There are other things about how you can make it better. You're talking about policing and control. There are all kinds of ideas, I understand, on the table. Is there anything you want to add to that, other than what you've pointed out, as to why this would be an important step forward? It's not that you're paying so much in fees. You are; we understand that. There may be a reason. But if there were a reduction, you'd actually want to reinvest it back into the industry. This is a group you want to make that point to. Why is that a benefit to the overall fishery?

[Hubert Saulnier]

Number one, LFA 34 does not have a voice. I represent thirty-some fishermen, and everybody is in the same boat. We need something that's unanimous and has the voice of every fisherman in LFA 34 who would be involved in the decision-making process.

This is all new. It hasn't been escalated yet, but I would assume if we had the right person at the helm, promoting the industry and coming out with recommendations to sustain the industry, it would be beneficial.

We don't look at this body or agency making any recommendations of how we should fish and how many traps we should fish. That would be LFA 34's job. But we meet with LFA 34 and there are avenues that need to be taken, like looking at what is the pre-assessment of MFC, what is the quality, what are the markets out there. The LFA management board could tell this agency to do this work for us. And again, this agency would represent every licence holder, so the trust would be there.

Hopefully you will be interested in this so-called proposal, so we can come up with some more.... This is done by a bunch of uneducated fishermen and senators who draw the stuff as rough as they can—future senators.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Thank you.

[Hubert Saulnier]

So keep me in mind, eh?