Evidence of meeting #17 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lobster.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Greg Thompson  President, Fundy North Fishermen's Association
Richard Thompson  Chair, Fundy Regional Forum
Norman Ferris  As an Individual
Neil Withers  As an Individual
Steven Thompson  As an Individual
Dale Mitchell  As an Individual

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

I call the meeting to order.

Thank you very much, everyone, for coming this morning. On behalf of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans, we really appreciate your attendance, Mr. Thompson and Mr. Thompson.

Before we begin I'll just go over a couple of items. We generally allow ten minutes for an oral presentation, and following that there are some timelines that the members have to adhere to for questioning.

Mr. Greg Thompson, you're going to go first, and Richard, you're going to follow. Mr. Thompson, I'll ask you to proceed at this time.

Thank you.

9 a.m.

Greg Thompson President, Fundy North Fishermen's Association

I thank you for this opportunity to meet all you gentlemen. I haven't met very many before, other than Mr. Weston, so thank you for coming to us.

I am president of the Fundy North Fishermen's Association. It represents fishermen from St. Martins to Deer Island and along the north shore of the Bay of Fundy. We have roughly 40 to 60 members, probably slightly fewer than half of the fishermen in that area. The rest do not belong to any association. Our association is a volunteer association. We charge dues of $200 to be a member. Most of the work is done by volunteers, although we have been able to hire an office person to deal with some of the issues--paperwork and so on--that are required.

I am also a member of the Fisheries Resource Conservation Council, but I'm not appearing here today in that capacity. You've already spoken to Jean Guy and Gerard and had some of the denial. I am speaking on behalf of Fundy North and, I might say, a bit for myself as well.

I am also a member of the Gulf of Maine Council on the Marine Environment, the provincial round table on fisheries, and the Scotia-Fundy round table, so I spend a lot of time going to meetings, primarily on my own time and at my own expense, but fishing is my life and I am very interested in it.

When you represent an association--and I'm sure I'm telling you people nothing you don't already know--there are a lot of diverse views. I have a good friend in the association, a fisherman, who is quite adamant that we need to be exploiting the lobster stock less. I have another good friend in my association, also a fisherman, who says that the lobsters are there to be fished as hard as we can fish them, and if they won't stand it, then we go drive a truck. I have views from one end to the other and everywhere in between, so for me to come representing a group is a difficult task.

In Fundy North we have tried to stress working with the people with whom we have conflict in order to try to move things ahead. I would say Fundy North was strong on working with the aquaculture industry to try to resolve some of the conflicts we've had with them. We worked with the Irving group on the LNG terminal to try to resolve the conflicts we had with them. Many of our fishermen said, “Just oppose it. Don't do anything. Just fight them”, but our approach has been to try to work through some of our problems.

That's the tone I bring here today, because we have problems we need to work through, but we don't have any mechanism to do it. I'll get on to that a little later, and maybe I'll be a little hard on you fellows, but I guess I'll give it a try.

Science tells us that in the Bay of Fundy it takes seven years for a lobster to grow to a size so that it enters the fishery. This fact has two major implications. First, all the lobsters that will be landed in the next seven years are currently crawling around the bottom of the ocean. Second, it will be eight years before we know the success of this year's spawning.

The current plan to deal with the lobster harvest is to catch as much as possible each season within the conservation rules. This does not seem to be a prudent business plan for seven years of stock. The great fear in a competitive fishery is that someone will catch the lobster before I do, and that's what drives this push to get as much as you can.

There is no mechanism in place to look at long-term economic planning. Global marketing and the rapid worldwide growth of aquaculture has increased the competition for the consumer's seafood dollar. The lobster industry is putting too much product on the market to maintain the high prices we have come to expect. Demand, and hence prices, had begun to decline even before the current economic downturn made matters worse. The charts--I have some here--indicate that 2005 was the peak year for sales and price for lobsters. It's been declining since then.

Traditionally, half of the lobster landings go to processing, half to the live market. The processing price is lower than live market price, but the live market seems to have reached a ceiling, as landings are at a 100-year high.

Now, some in the industry feel that the fishery would be better served in this situation if lower-quality lobsters were left in the water, if landings were streamlined to reduce glut situations, and if a way could be found to reduce price fluctuations so promotions could be planned in advance. Others feel that any movement in that direction may impair their competitive advantage. Some feel the industry is overcapitalized and inefficient. Others feel that those who fish hard will be rewarded and those who do not will have to leave. The Department of Fisheries’ position is that these are economic concerns and, without unanimity on an action, the status quo will prevail.

In terms of the long-term health of the lobster stock, industry is also divided. Some say that the current high landings prove that our management regime is sufficient to guarantee a healthy biomass. Others say that beginning to fish a stock two years before it is capable of spawning, with no knowledge of what percent of the spawning stock we are removing, is a recipe for disaster.

Now, if one were to google the words “sustainability framework”, one would get over three million hits. These would range from sustainability of the Toronto waterfront to sustainability of the Wisconsin forest. This indicates how important the concept of sustainability has become to our society. It is also informative that all definitions agree that social and economic considerations are right up there with ecological needs.

One thing our industry agrees on is that better marketing of lobster must occur. What we seem to miss in the industry is that better marketing implies a change from what we are doing. Japan wants better knowledge and management of PSP in tomalley. Europe wants traceability and third party certification that the fishery is sustainable. Environmental groups want more protection for species at risk in fishing plans. Several large stores are demanding MSC certification.

Now, the lobster resource is the property of the people of Canada. It generates about a billion dollars a year in income, primarily in rural communities. In many areas it is the major economic driver, as other fisheries continue to struggle. Meeting the challenges facing this important industry is possible, but it requires change and it requires money. And this is the point that I wanted to drive home: our present regulatory regime allows us to do neither.

I’m going to digress here. Years ago, when I started representing fishermen, I’d say about 30 years ago, we were trying to save our drift net salmon fishery coming into the Saint John River. We had a meeting with our then MP regarding this. At that time the government had just brought in what are called community service officers. They had people in the community to try to help the fishermen work with the Department of Fisheries and solve their problems. I remember the MP saying, “I don’t like these community service officers”. He said, “I remember the good old days when, if a fisherman had a problem, he got in a plane, came to Ottawa, and we straightened it out.” Those times have passed, but unfortunately the regulations have not changed to allow us to make decisions any differently. We can’t make decisions on our own. I don’t know how to handle it, and that’s why I’m coming to you.

This industry needs a decision-making process that does not define consensus as 100% agreement. And just two examples: if we were to ask for 100% agreement from the public that they'll pay income tax before we implement it, it wouldn’t happen; if we were to ask for 100% consensus in Parliament before anything went forward, it wouldn’t happen. But that’s precisely what’s asked of the fishermen.

The industry needs a way that money can be collected to finance things like market opportunities, product development, and additional science and technology changes. The idea would be to enhance rather than replace government contributions. But there are things that the industry should be taking on. Nothing implies ownership like contributing to the cost. There's the old saying, he who pays the piper calls the tune. If the fishermen want a voice, there should be a mechanism whereby they can contribute to some of the issues that are facing them.

Government is pulling back on funding commitments to the fishery and demanding that we do more, but it will not allow any initiative that requires all to pay. I've run into this many times in the 30 years I've been representing fishermen, and I'm going to give you an example.

Our wharves were turned over to local harbour authorities. By and large, this has worked pretty well, but the harbour authorities were given no authority to collect dues. It's basically on a donation basis. If a fisherman refuses to pay his dues, there's nothing we can do about it. We've gone to government people many times and asked if they will correct the situation by attaching it to a licence or doing something so that the people using the wharves will have to pay, but all we receive is refusal. In that sense, the government is encouraging non-compliance and non-cooperation when they reward those who will not ante up.

It's the same way in requiring consensus. The government gives a veto to any contrary person by defining consensus to mean there were no dissenting votes. As an example, three attempts were made to pass a new fisheries act. It was brought in by Liberals under Regan, and it was brought in by the Conservatives under Hearn--

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Mr. Thompson, I'll have to ask you to wrap up, please.

9:15 a.m.

President, Fundy North Fishermen's Association

Greg Thompson

Okay. Well, then I'll skip over this.

In the short term, the government has produced a stimulus package. For the short term, we'd like to see a new patrol boat. Our patrol boat has gone. They're talking about replacing it with a 110-foot boat based in Dartmouth. That will not work. It will not provide the security needed in this area. We have a nuclear plant, we have an LNG plant, and we've already had security people from Ottawa here saying this is going to have to be looked at. We'll have no government presence on the water if this boat goes to Dartmouth and is based out of there.

As Richard is going to say, we need support for the issue of PSP in tomalley. We need the Canadian Centre for Fisheries Innovation initiative to bring the industry together, and their funding has been cut, so we have nothing we can do to try to solve our problems. We should be solving our own problems, but we need a mechanism to do it and we do not have it.

Thank you.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you, Mr. Thompson.

Mr. Thompson, do you have some opening comments you'd like to make?

9:15 a.m.

Richard Thompson Chair, Fundy Regional Forum

Good morning. I'm a member of the Fundy Regional Forum, made up of southern N.B. fishing industry representatives. Our area of representation is from the Canada-U.S. border to Alma. As well, it takes in the island communities of Grand Manan, Deer Island, and Campobello.

Our forum was recently addressed on the subject of paralytic shellfish poisoning in lobster by Mike Beattie. He was a doctor of veterinary medicine with the Department of Agriculture and Aquaculture. I have here an information update with Health Canada, and it's a new, updated version. It says:

Health Canada recommends that: - children not eat lobster tomalley. - adults restrict their consumption of lobster tomalley to no more than the amount from one cooked lobster per day.

We feel on the forum that this PSP in lobster restricts our product in the marketplace, and that there would be a need for more research and development in testing of the product itself.

Now, I have a letter that we drew up and sent to the minister, and we also sent it to the president of the Canadian Food Inspection Agency. I would like to read the letter. It starts:

Dear Minister Shea and Ms. Swan,

This letter follows the New Brunswick and Nova Scotia tomalley sampling and analysis program in the fall of 2008. It is the result of subsequent discussions relating to possible revisions to Health Canada's tomalley consumption advisory.

This updated information from Health Canada is updated from the last advisory that was sent out, and it is recommended that less tomalley be eaten. It's a little more of a concern at this time. It was just put out on March 19, just recently.

The Fundy Regional Forum is a seafood industry stakeholder committee created as result of recommendations stemming from a renewal process for New Brunswick fisheries. It was established with support from Minister of Fisheries, the Hon. Rick Doucet and the Minister's Round Table on Fisheries. The forum promotes common interests and development, and addresses opportunities or challenges that face the seafood industry. Members are dedicated to community economic and social well being and come from areas stretching from the Canada-United States border, including the island communities of Grand Manan, Campobello and Deer Island, to the port of Alma in the upper Bay of Fundy.

Forum members are now aware of several scientific information gaps on the relationships between lobster, tomalley, Paralytic Shellfish Poisoning and human health. Your support to provide answers on this sensitive, food safety issue is necessary to provide stability and market confidence, as well as to reduce further, the potential for negative impacts within an already volatile world market. Today, Canadian lobster exports are estimated to be in the vicinity of 1 billion dollars.

Despite some initial investigations being undertaken, a continuation of research should be a foregone conclusion and maintained as a priority for Atlantic lobster. It is imperative that funding assistance be provided to evaluate and/or establish the following:

i. Tomalley consumption, toxicity and human health

ii. Spatial and temporal distribution and predictability of Paralytic Shellfish Poison and ranges in lobster and other crustaceans

iii. Accumulation and depletion of toxins in live and cooked products

iv. Diagnostics, traceability and market compliance

The collaborative research approach established during the fall of 2008 that included the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, Fisheries and Oceans Canada, the Atlantic Veterinary College Lobster Science Centre, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, lobster harvesters and association should again be initiated and funded.

We understand that finding money for research can be problematic, especially for the fisheries and seafood sectors. We would anticipate that with the new fiscal year approaching, some very serious consideration can be given and funding assistance applied to resolve some of those important issues identified.

We believe that your funding support is consistent with the goals, actions, and priorities established under the Fisheries Renewal Framework for New Brunswick. The spring lobster fishery is rapidly approaching. Coordination, timing and establishment of lead roles for any projects are critical given the onset of the fishery on April 1.

Thank you for your consideration. We look forward to a positive response on this important issue.

In short, our lobsters are being rejected from some marketplaces, particularly Japan. This puts more pressure on our other markets. We feel that with a little more in-depth research into the PSP in lobster, we can clear our product for markets worldwide and on all consumers' tables.

Thank you very much.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you, gentlemen.

We'll begin with questioning from Mr. Byrne.

I believe you're going to share your time with Mr. MacAulay.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

I am indeed. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for providing some very helpful perspectives on your industry and on some of our recommendations that we need to forge to help you guys out.

On the issues of market access and on a range of issues surrounding your industry, are you participating in the Atlantic lobster round table? Has that process been somewhat helpful to you?

The second issue would be market certification. Is market certification a potential tool or benefit for you to be able to break through these non-tariff trade barriers? Those are what you're referring to in rejection of certain products. Do you think that's an opportunity or a potential pitfall in developing the industry?

Mr. Thompson, maybe you could lead off and talk a little bit about the Atlantic round table, if you're included in that process.

9:25 a.m.

President, Fundy North Fishermen's Association

Greg Thompson

I'm a member of the Atlantic round table on lobster. We have begun an initiative to try to get a steering committee that will move forward on generic marketing of lobster Atlantic-wide and also on eco-certification. It is the feeling that we cannot afford to lose any markets. Several markets have told us that without eco-certification, they will not handle the product. Whether they're bluffing or not, I don't think at this stage we can take a chance. However, as I've told you before, there is conflict among fishermen, and we need a mechanism to move along.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Richard, could you interject on that point as well, particularly about the market certification component?

Greg, I understand that the Canadian Centre for Fisheries Innovation has been involved in the Atlantic lobster round table.

9:25 a.m.

President, Fundy North Fishermen's Association

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

That organization is about to go defunct in 30 days' time because the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency has pulled its funding. Do you have any thoughts about that? Do you want to advise the committee about your position on that?

9:25 a.m.

President, Fundy North Fishermen's Association

Greg Thompson

My position is that the lobster initiative needs support.

I am not familiar with the long-term work of CCFI. I know they do good work. I've only been involved in this lobster round table for a short time, and they've done good work for us. Right now they are the people who are leading the initiative to try to get the industry to deal with the market challenges. Eco-certification and traceability are two major challenges that industry has to face; if they're not there, I don't know who is going to take it on. I really don't.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Richard, perhaps you could just add something, and then I'll pass my time to my colleague Lawrence.

9:25 a.m.

Chair, Fundy Regional Forum

Richard Thompson

Well, I can't comment much on the round table and that sort of thing.

On the issue of this PSP in lobsters, all of our consumers seem to be more health conscious when making their purchases of food nowadays, and I think this whole thing needs to be straightened out. The people who presented this report to our forum said there's virtually no means and no funding for them to pursue this and do the proper testing and the research on our product to clear it up. I just wanted to bring this to your attention, that all members of our forum feel that this is something we'd like to see our people go to work on.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

Thank you very much. It's good to be here in New Brunswick. And welcome to the Thompson boys, it's good to have you here. Thank you for coming.

On that very issue, Richard, what you're telling the committee is that you feel there's not enough research or no dollars to address the problem—

9:25 a.m.

Chair, Fundy Regional Forum

Richard Thompson

That's what we believe.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

—and what has taken place is that the world community has been led to believe you have this problem and you've nothing to fix it with. Is that what you're telling the committee? You mentioned the Japanese market in this.

9:25 a.m.

Chair, Fundy Regional Forum

Richard Thompson

That's how we feel, yes.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

Well, it's a very serious matter when it comes to selling the product.

Greg, you mentioned—and I think you could have elaborated at length—the problems with no mechanisms to fix the situation. I certainly understand what you're talking about, but it's good to get it on the record.

When you have port authorities formed and no system to collect...but you could elaborate much further on what needs to be done by the Government of Canada or whomever to help put mechanisms in place so that you're able to deal with some of the problems. You can identify them as well as I and get them on the record.

9:25 a.m.

President, Fundy North Fishermen's Association

Greg Thompson

Well, for a decision-making process in a competitive fishery—and you may have heard of the study that came out recently that there'll be no competitive fisheries after 2050. They'll all be gone, except ITQ, and in my opinion the reason is that an ITQ has an owner and he can make a business decision.

When you have a group of competitors in a room, they cannot make a business decision. In our advisory capacity, DFO has defined consensus as 100% agreement. I think the minister somehow has to make it so we can make a decision and have input into decisions, more so than just offering an opinion at the table. When you get 10 different opinions, it isn't right for the minister to have to choose one to make a decision on; then basically decisions don't get made. We have to find a mechanism.

But the minister, constitutionally, has the right, so it's up to the minister to devolve some decision-making authority to boards or whatever if we're going to retain a competitive fishery. Personally, I favour a competitive fishery, but I agree entirely: if they cannot find a mechanism to make a decision, they will lose their positions to ITQs, because those guys can make decisions.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

So you support ITQs in the lobster industry?

9:30 a.m.

President, Fundy North Fishermen's Association

Greg Thompson

I do not—

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

And also do you support the minister making the decision in the end, or do you think the decision should be that the minister can put the decision to a board? This is a fairly important issue at this time.

9:30 a.m.

President, Fundy North Fishermen's Association

Greg Thompson

Yes, it is. I do not support ITQs. I say they're the default position when decisions cannot be made by a group. And I am optimistic that decisions could be made by a group if a mechanism was found. But when the minister has 100% total authority to make decisions, how do we do more than advise as an industry?