Evidence of meeting #37 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendments.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

David Balfour  Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Aquaculture Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

I call this meeting to order.

Before we start, I'll remind the members, for their information, that our meeting today is being televised. So comb your hair, sit up straight, and smile.

I'd like to begin by thanking the minister for joining us today. I know you're no stranger to our committee proceedings, but I'll remind you, Minister, that generally we allow 10 minutes for presentations from our witnesses at the committee. There's a little timer here. You'll hear a beep when the 10 minutes have expired. Just try to keep within certain time constraints. The members all know the time constraints that they're held to.

With that, Minister, welcome. I'd ask you, when you begin your presentation, to take a few moments to introduce your staff accompanying you today as well.

Thank you very much. You may proceed at any time.

3:35 p.m.

Egmont P.E.I.

Conservative

Gail Shea ConservativeMinister of Fisheries and Oceans

Thank you very much.

Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for inviting me to be here today. I believe it's my second appearance before the House Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans to talk about important fisheries issues.

With me I have Claire Dansereau, the Deputy Minister of Fisheries and Oceans; Dave Balfour, the Senior Acting Assistant Deputy Minister; and Guy Beaupré, the Acting Associate Assistant Deputy Minister--quite a title.

As you know, I will be with you for a period of one hour. I believe my officials can stay longer than that, if you so wish. I will begin by giving a short statement.

First of all, I want to welcome the opportunity to outline why my department and our government support amendments to the 1978 Convention on Future Multilateral Cooperation in the Northwest Atlantic Fisheries, also known as the NAFO convention. These amendments are good for Canada and good for Canada's fishing industry, and I believe they deserve our support.

As you know, achieving sustainable and responsible fisheries is a complex challenge. Through foresight and hard work, Canada is now a leader in shaping global conservation efforts. We are collaborating with provincial governments, with industry, and with our international partners to heighten global awareness about the need to ensure conservation-based harvesting in all fisheries.

Our paramount objective is to curb overfishing. We want to ensure that sustainable fisheries are there for generations to come.

One of the most effective ways to achieve this is by taking part in a regional fisheries management organization, an RFMO such as the Northwest Atlantic Fisheries Organization, known as NAFO. It's clear that no single jurisdiction can succeed alone in stopping the practice of overfishing. NAFO and other organizations like it offer a unique forum to influence others, assertively represent Canada's interests, and forge cooperative alliances that allow us to advance them.

We have achieved a remarkable degree of success over the last few years in managing our fisheries resources through these collaborative efforts.

In September my officials had a very productive meeting in Norway. They achieved important results for Canada. These include 11 closures in the NAFO regulatory area to protect corals and sponges from bottom fishing.

I would like to assure this committee that all decisions at this year's NAFO meeting were within scientific advice. These also include NAFO adopting Canadian proposals for strict bycatch provisions and other precautionary measures to ensure the reopenings of 3M cod on the Flemish Cap, outside of Canada's 200-mile limit, and redfish in division 3LN, which is on the southern Grand Banks, and also to ensure that they are carried out responsibly.

These reopenings are a significant milestone since they came a decade after these stocks were placed under moratorium. Canada, through its participation in NAFO, played a central role in enforcing the moratorium and fostering the recovery of these stocks.

For Greenland halibut, the total allowable catch was maintained at 16,000 tonnes for one year. This will be reviewed in 2010 with additional information. This fishery is worth $25 million to the Newfoundland economy.

These accomplishments build on many others in recent years. Canada has achieved great success in improving compliance of fishing vessels in the NAFO regulatory area, or NRA, which is outside of Canada's 200-mile limit.

In fact, since we formed the government in 2006, there have been fewer violations in the NAFO regulatory area in those four years combined than there were in 2005. This is largely due to greater enforcement and improvements to the monitoring, control, and surveillance measures adopted by NAFO in 2006.

Additional measures to further improve compliance were adopted at the 2009 NAFO meeting. There have been four serious infractions so far this year. All the vessels involved were recalled to port for additional inspections, as required by the NAFO conservation and enforcement measures. Fishery officers from my department observed these inspections. This demonstrates just how seriously NAFO contracting parties take the issue of illegal fishing on the high seas.

Through Canada's leadership, we are helping to turn NAFO into a model regional fisheries management organization. As a result of our efforts, some important straddling stock, such as yellowtail flounder, have fully recovered, and American plaice is showing signs of recovery. These fish are found both inside Canadian waters and on the high seas of NAFO's regulatory area.

Enhanced enforcement is only part of what we are accomplishing through participation in NAFO. Reform and modernization of regional fisheries management organizations like NAFO must continue so that today's challenges are met with modern solutions. That's why NAFO adopted amendments to its 1978 convention in 2007, amendments that I must emphasize are consistent with the United Nations Fisheries Agreement and the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. Mr. Chair, these changes were needed and welcomed by Canada. Most importantly, these changes recognize and respect Canada's sovereignty over its 200-mile limit.

Canada maintains control over its waters. No NAFO measures will be applied in Canadian waters unless Canada requests that they apply and unless Canada votes in favour of such action. This bears repeating, Mr. Chair. Canada's sovereignty is protected. There will be no NAFO measures within Canadian waters unless we ask for them and we vote for them, period. If and only if we see value in allowing foreign nations into our exclusive economic zone--in the case of a joint NAFO science expedition, for example--the project will be conducted under Canada's direction, supervision, and control. Make no mistake: we do, and we will continue, to assert Canada's interests and we will work to protect our assets. We will only agree to something if it's in the best interests of Canada and the stewardship of our resources.

So let me repeat: Canada maintains absolute control over its waters. Any suggestion to the contrary is simply ill informed and fear-mongering.

Let's also be clear about why Canada supports this new convention. First, under the old convention, any country could object to a NAFO decision and decide on a unilateral quota on its own and fish it without consequence. Under the amended convention, there are new objection procedures that require the objecting country to put alternative measures in place. There is also a dispute resolution mechanism to address such issues. These mechanisms, for the first time in NAFO's history, require all contracting parties to be held accountable for their actions.

Second, the amended convention emphasizes reaching consensus on decisions wherever possible. Only when consensus cannot be reached would a two-thirds majority voting system be used. This new voting system will help protect Canada's fishing quotas in NAFO. Any NAFO member that wishes to change the way NAFO allocates fish must obtain the support of eight of the 12 NAFO members instead of the seven that were needed before. This, in turn, protects Canada's quotas.

Under the original convention rules, NAFO's decisions were made through a simple majority vote. This often left the impression that there were only winners and losers in NAFO decisions. In some cases, it led to defiance of rules, unilateral quotas, and overfishing. These changes provide a decision-making process that better reflects the modern challenges facing NAFO members.

The successful management of fisheries in the northwest Atlantic outside our 200-mile limit requires international collaboration and is called for in international law. By bringing together decision-makers, fisheries managers, enforcement officers, and scientists, NAFO can develop effective conservation and management measures, and they can implement appropriate mechanisms to ensure compliance. I'm proud to say that Canada strongly supports these efforts and is a strong leader at the NAFO table.

As you know, Canadian industry and provincial governments, including Newfoundland and Labrador, were consulted extensively on the amended convention. They agreed that it protects Canada's interests and uses the most up-to-date decision-making and management practices. The amended convention has many advantages for Canada, because it represents a shift to an ecosystem-based approach to decision-making. This means that decisions take into account the complex interrelationships among marine species and their habitat. They also consider the impact of fishing gear on sensitive ocean habitat.

In keeping with this new approach, NAFO has led the way in recent years to protect vulnerable marine ecosystems in the regulatory area. In these times of global economic uncertainty, building fisheries that are both sustainable and economically prosperous is at the top of my department's agenda. This is why these amendments are so important. They help ensure the conservation and sustainable management of the stocks and ecosystems in the northwest Atlantic.

Working together under the NAFO banner, we have successfully engaged in a new cooperative approach to fisheries management. Our ultimate goal is to ensure sustainable fisheries through decisions based on sound scientific advice. We will continue to press for change through multilateral discussions and our strategic bilateral relations with like-minded fishing countries. When it comes to sustainable management of fisheries, Canada will always lead by example. That's why we strongly support changes to the NAFO convention.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Byrne.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

And thank you, Minister and colleagues.

You and your government assert that Canada already has custodial management of the nose and tail of the Grand Banks as well as the Flemish Cap. One would think if we really had custodial management we wouldn't need to revise NAFO at all. One would think that custodial management trumps NAFO, unless of course custodial management claims are actually quite fraudulent.

Would you explain why the Conservative government has as its official policy that it has achieved custodial management and we don't even need to actually be talking about NAFO, other than.... You say that Newfoundland and Labrador agreed to all of this at those meetings and we should take your word for it. Yet this committee has received specific documentation in writing from the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador that it certainly does not agree with any of this.

Finally, corals and sponges are now protected from bottom trawling by NAFO within its jurisdiction, in an area outside the continental shelf and into deeper waters. It is an intriguing situation on which you can show some real leadership. Consistent with that NAFO decision to ban bottom trawling to protect corals and sponges in the offshore area outside the continental shelf, since Canada has jurisdiction and management control over sedentary species on the continental shelf, you, Madam Minister, have the power to ban bottom dragging on our continental shelf on the nose and tail of the Grand Banks. Consistent with the NAFO decision, Minister, you can ban foreign fishing activity on the nose and tail to protect those sponges and corals. Will you do it?

There are three questions for you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Gail Shea Conservative Egmont, PE

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, in response to the member's comments about the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, Newfoundland and Labrador are a part of this delegation to NAFO. They were part of it in 2007 when these changes were negotiated and, until very recently, did not give any indication that they were not supportive of what had been negotiated; as a matter of fact, quite the opposite, because I did get a couple of letters from the minister in Newfoundland indicating just that as recently as July 18.

On the sponges and corals, these areas that have been identified to be closed for protection of the ecosystem are areas that have not been subject to bottom trawling because once you do bottom trawling, whatever harm you're going to effect on these corals and sponges has already taken place. These 11 areas that have been identified are areas that have not been touched and are still very much intact.

On custodial management, I know different ideas are put forward by different people on what custodial management actually is. But what has happened in this case is that we cannot take ownership of property of the ocean outside of our 200-mile limit because the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea would not allow that to happen. It cannot happen. What has happened is that we do provide surveillance, conservation, and protection. We do, through NAFO, have rules that are present in the NAFO regulatory area, and therefore we manage this area.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Thank you, Ms. Shea.

You didn't have an opportunity to explain in any great detail why custodial management was described in the Conservative Party of Canada's platform of 2008 as being in force. Canada allegedly has custodial management; that's what your government says. Yet now you tell us that we cannot put it into force because it cannot exist. I don't understand why you tell people in Canada we have custodial management of the nose and tail of the Grand Banks and the Flemish Cap--and put it in your platform--when it doesn't exist.

You also said that NAFO's great achievement was to ban something that never occurred. There was never any activity in the 11 areas where a prohibition has been placed on bottom trawling to protect coral. You have an opportunity now to use that same legal principle to ban bottom trawling of foreign factory freezer trawlers on the nose and tail, and you're walking away from it. It seems rather strange.

This afternoon I had an opportunity to ask the Minister of Foreign Affairs directly about an amendment or motion that will be put forward to this committee. We were given notice of it today. Government members, joined by the Bloc and the NDP, will consider asking the government to extend the consultation period on the NAFO amendments a further 21 days. The government tabled a very specific policy in 2008 that allowed Parliament 21 sitting days to review international treaties. Conservative members are now saying that policy is not effective, it's broken, it's too short a timeframe, and it needs to be extended by another 21 days. When I asked the Minister of Foreign Affairs if he was prepared to actually sanction amending his policy, he refused to answer me. You answered instead.

Did you speak for the Government of Canada, the Prime Minister, and the Minister of Foreign Affairs when you told me this afternoon in the House that you were prepared to amend the federal government's policy on the tabling of international treaties in Parliament and change it from 21 sitting days to 42? Is that the position of the Government of Canada and not the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans Canada?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Gail Shea Conservative Egmont, PE

Thank you.

As far as I'm concerned, every time I speak it's on behalf of the Government of Canada. In January 2008, Minister Cannon changed the way Canada signs on to international treaties. This was to give opposition parties a chance to view and comment on the treaties. It's my understanding that the period for tabling treaties must be at least 21 days. It does not say it can't be more than 21 days.

Given that a number of countries are party to this convention and all countries are working to get their amended conventions adopted by their own countries, I think it's reasonable--if it is the wish of the committee--that we look at another 21 days. We don't have a problem with that.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Madam Minister, NAFO has made the decision to ban bottom trawling for coral and sponges in the offshore area. Are you prepared to consider that for the nose and the tail of the Grand Banks outside of the 200 miles? You'd be consistent with your NAFO partners if you did.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Gail Shea Conservative Egmont, PE

We haven't banned bottom trawling where there is currently fishing; we've banned closed areas where coral currently exists. Where there is bottom trawling, the damage has already been done to the coral, and banning would not help it. But we have an international obligation to work with the regional fisheries management organizations, and that's where those decisions are made.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

You have no rebuttal whatsoever that custodial management is a fictitious policy that just doesn't exist. Do you agree with that?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Gail Shea Conservative Egmont, PE

Custodial management exists, because Canada manages this area through NAFO outside our 200-mile limit.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL

Minister, do you see this new NAFO agreement as being custodial management?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Gail Shea Conservative Egmont, PE

I believe that the NAFO agreement strengthens custodial management.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL

So you're saying our government has custodial management outside of the 200-mile limit.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Gail Shea Conservative Egmont, PE

Yes, I am.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL

Your government also stated in previous years that it was going to conclude a bilateral agreement with the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador so the province itself could obtain management of the fisheries resource inside the 200-mile limit. Have you moved forward with this bilateral agreement?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Gail Shea Conservative Egmont, PE

No. There was an agreement between the union in Newfoundland and another party, I believe, but we were not a signatory to it, nor were we invited to be a signatory.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL

Your party committed that it would move forward with a bilateral agreement in Petty Harbour in the campaign of 2006, I believe, and move forward with the province on management of resources inside the 200-mile limit. Have you proceeded with that?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Gail Shea Conservative Egmont, PE

No, we haven't.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL

Okay. Thank you very much.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

There are 15 seconds left, so we'll move on to Monsieur Blais.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon. My first question deals with the topic of the day. Other questions will deal with other issues.

Madam Minister, what was the level of your participation in the negotiations that resulted in this amended convention? At what point in time did this issue come before you?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Gail Shea Conservative Egmont, PE

I do not attend NAFO meetings. Those meetings are attended by officials. I worked with our department on setting up the mandate for discussions at NAFO meetings.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

I presume that you did some follow-up. How did you go about that?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Gail Shea Conservative Egmont, PE

Could you elaborate a little on the question?