Evidence of meeting #40 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rebuilding.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ted McDorman  Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Victoria
Phillip M. Saunders  Dean of Law, Dalhousie University
Boris Worm  Assistant Professor, Biology Department, Dalhousie University
Heike Lotze  Assistant Professor, Biology Department, Dalhousie University

4:35 p.m.

Dean of Law, Dalhousie University

Dr. Phillip M. Saunders

I've avoided coming down on that subject, because I think that's a political choice and one made through the processes in this committee and the House.

What I can do—and I think Professor McDorman would do the same—is to lay out what I see as the pros and cons of the amendments that have been achieved. There will be people who will reasonably disagree with the assessment of which are the most important. I looked at the words Professor McDorman used in one session—and I think Mr. McCurdy as well—and tried to find something that I would consider to be a deal breaker, and I don't think I found one.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Mr. McDorman.

4:40 p.m.

Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Victoria

Dr. Ted McDorman

I adopt Professor Saunders' brilliant comments, as I so often do in my life.

But I do take the same view. I've looked mostly at the institutional structural issues, and I see there's a positive rather than negative. But there is more to the agreement than that. So without having delved into all of that, I'm a little reluctant to provide advice to the Government of Canada. I'm also a lawyer, of course, and if you want my advice, you get to pay for it.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Gentlemen, I would like to take this opportunity on behalf of the committee to thank both of you for coming here today to appear before this committee. We really do appreciate your time and efforts.

We'll take a brief break as we prepare for our next guests.

Thank you.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

We will call the meeting back to order.

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you for coming here today and appearing before this committee. I'm not sure if you heard my little spiel beforehand, but we are constrained by some timeframes here. Generally what we do when guests come in is to ask them to try to constrain their comments to about ten minutes. I generally don't cut the guests off. The members do know about, and are constrained by, timeframes as well for questions and answers. That's in order to allow all parties to have the allotted time for questions and answers.

At this point in time, I'll turn the floor over to you. I'd ask that you introduce yourself and your associates, and I'll let you proceed from there.

October 27th, 2009 / 4:45 p.m.

Dr. Boris Worm Assistant Professor, Biology Department, Dalhousie University

Thanks, Mr. Chairman, and thanks and to the committee. Bonjour everyone.

We are very pleased to be given the opportunity to provide you with some information about rebuilding fish stocks and creating new economic opportunities on both coasts, and in the Arctic in the future.

We have prepared a visual presentation that we also shared this morning with the minister. She was very engaged and interested, particularly in the graphs we were showing. We just learned that the presentation has been provided to you, but has been translated somewhat incompletely. We would like to request, if at all possible, being given the opportunity to share that material with you on the screen today as we talk, because it makes the information that much more interesting and clear. It's much clearer that way for us to explain it. I understand that it will be fully translated subsequently. If we can't show it here, we'll accept that, but it would be to the benefit of all if you could show it.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

I appreciate your comments.

Unfortunately, we're not able to show it today, because it hasn't been translated properly. I'm sorry, but copies haven't even been distributed to members yet. I apologize at this point in time that unfortunately we're not able to do that. What we will do is that we will commit to distributing copies of the presentation to the members once the translation has been done properly.

Monsieur Blais.

4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

It is my fault that the documents have not been distributed. I do not necessarily feel guilty, but you must understand that it is an issue of principle and fairness. If there were just a few columns of the document that had not been translated, I would have shown some flexibility, as I have in the past, but many passages were not translated. That is why I refused the document.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you.

Please proceed.

4:45 p.m.

Assistant Professor, Biology Department, Dalhousie University

Dr. Boris Worm

I understand.

Our presentation comes in two parts. Dr. Lotze will talk about the historical context for understanding the situation we're now in, and I will talk about solutions for creating those economic opportunities I was talking about.

4:50 p.m.

Dr. Heike Lotze Assistant Professor, Biology Department, Dalhousie University

Thank you to the chairman and the committee for having us here.

I would like to make the point that we have been exploiting ocean resources for centuries. It's not the first crisis, maybe, that we're in today. For many centuries, it was done in a sustainable way. Most depletions and collapses and extinctions have occurred over the last 200 years.

In the 19th century it was mostly mammals and birds we were over-exploiting and driving to collapse. In the 20th century, that shifted also to finfish species. Today, especially in coastal regions, which I have studied most--estuaries and coastal bays--about 7% of the species that have historically been fished or hunted have been driven to extinction, and about 36% have collapsed, meaning that they're below 10% of what there used to be. What we can learn from history is that it's not just the magnitude of the declines. Over historical times--and for fish it has mostly been in the last 50 to 100 years--most species that have been very valuable and heavily exploited have been driven to around 10% of their former biomass. So there has been a 90% decline.

As I said before, for mammals and birds, a lot of these changes happened near the turn of the 20th century. In the early part of the 20th century, we started conserving those species. We started bringing in legislation and protection laws to help those species survive and eventually recover. We have a number of marine mammals and birds from which I think we can learn, when we're dealing with fish, in terms of how to recover them. Many birds and mammals that have been driven to below 10% of their former abundance are now back up to 40% of their former abundance. They're not back to their original levels, but at least they are on their way.

What has mostly helped to turn things around for those mammals, birds, and some fish, as well, is of course reversing the two or three main drivers that depleted them in the first place. Exploitation is one main factor that has caused extinction and depletion of more than 90% of the species that have been depleted. The second most important one is habitat loss or habitat degradation. In many cases, it's not just one factor. It's not just exploitation. It's the combination of exploitation and habitat loss that has driven these species to low levels.

In turn, to recover those species, we would use these two factors: reduce exploitation and provide protection for important breeding, spawning, foraging,and nursery habitat. This has been, through legal protections and through the enforcement of management plans, really effective, at least for mammals and birds. That's what we can learn about recovery from history, in my perspective.

Another point I would like to make is that what's actually going on right now in Atlantic Canada, but also around the world, is a shift from finfish fisheries to invertebrate fisheries. Boris will talk about finfish more.

In Atlantic Canada, for example, since the 1990s, catches of finfishes have really declined, and emerging invertebrate fisheries have really increased in volume. There has been a tenfold increase in invertebrate catch in volume and about a thirteenfold increase in the value of these species.

These fisheries, in many regions, are seen as kind of a new fisheries frontier, as new species we can fish. They have increasing value in the global market. A lot of these species are marketed to go to Asia. More and more small communities depend on these invertebrate fisheries to make a living. But at the moment, from my perspective, we're not doing a very good job helping the sustainable development of these species, and we see more and more patterns of boom and bust--rapid expansion of these fisheries and rapid depletion of these fisheries.

What we have done recently is look into all the stock assessments or available data on these invertebrate species and basic knowledge on the population--how much is out there, how do they respond to fishing, what's the distribution. These basic knowledge parameters that we always acquire for finfish species are not even collected for these invertebrate fisheries. There is a new opportunity for markets, for jobs, but we're not really taking a good way to develop these resources in a sustainable manner.

Those are my points.

4:55 p.m.

Assistant Professor, Biology Department, Dalhousie University

Dr. Boris Worm

I would like to follow up on this. Heike has provided a bit of historical context. She is an environmental historian who has detailed the change in fisheries and the ecosystems associated with them. The public perception of this is now largely a bad-news story. A lot of the fisheries issues are perceived as bad news--species collapsing, fisheries closing, and so on. The question is, how do we turn this around? How do we turn this into a success story?

We think what's required is to change the focus of management from managing for exploitation to managing for rebuilding. That's the title of our presentation, “Managing our fisheries and oceans towards recovery”. This is not a pipe dream. It is something that's actually been going on in the United States over the last ten years, and worldwide in an increasing number of jurisdictions that are thinking forward and helping oceans and ocean resources and the communities that depend on them to recover.

What we did recently is to bring together a panel of experts at the National Center For Ecological Analysis And Synthesis in Santa Barbara, an NSF-funded independent organization. We brought together what I would call the leading fisheries experts and marine scientists from five continents around the globe, people who are at the cutting edge of science and who know about the local situations in different continents. What emerged was a picture that you can bring things back, not only historically but in real time. It usually takes less than a decade, and a number of tools are available right now to do this. But they need to be combined in an intelligent way to bring down a key parameter, and the key parameter is called the exploitation rate.

The exploitation rate is the amount or number of fish or invertebrates we take from the ecosystems every year, relative to what is there; it's the proportion. Say we're taking 10% a year, or we're taking 40% a year. What we've shown is that traditionally, basically all jurisdictions--Alaska is the one exception--have overshot the traditional target of having an exploitation rate that's associated with maximum yield. The traditional objective enshrined in our law and in United Nations law was to manage for maximum yield, the maximum catch that's sustainable over time. It turns out that was too high, and it also turns out that that goal in Canada and elsewhere was overshot. At that point, you're losing catch and you're also having massive ecosystem impacts, which Heike and others have documented.

How do we move back from that? How do we scale back from that? What we found is that you need a diverse and effective blend of management tools that have been used worldwide and in fact are used in Canada to some extent. However, we believe that they have to be combined in a way that makes them most effective.

Those solutions fall neatly into two categories. One is traditional tools of restrictions: restriction to the total catch that can be taken out; the total effort, how many days at sea; the total number of boats, which is fishing capacity; the area that can be fished, which translates into areas that are closed to fishing; and then restrictions to fishing gear. Those are five traditional solutions. Then there are three new solutions that increasingly gain traction around the world. One is catch shares, where fishermen have a long-term guaranteed share in the catch, whatever the catch may be. What that does it to transform the incentive from over-exploitation to managing the resource sustainably. I'll give you an example in a second.

Another solution is community co-management, where communities actually work with government to come up with their own management plans, and the third solution is fisheries certification--for example, the MSC label for sustainable fisheries.

I want to give you two examples. One is just south of the border and is an area that's also fished by Canadian fishermen, called Georges Bank. Georges Bank was heading the same way as the northern cod and other groundfish stocks in the Atlantic region over the last 40 years, the same trajectory of decline due to foreign overfishing in the 1960s and 1970s, then a rebuilding as the 200-mile limit came in and removed those boats from the scene, then a decline again as Canadians ramped up their fishing capacity.

In 1994, as Canadian stocks started collapsing, there was a rebuilding plan put into effect. That plan had three aspects: first, to reduce fishing effort, that is, days at sea; second, to put in two large closed areas; and third, to have effective restrictions on some fishing gear.

In 1995 there was a recovery of the stock, which has increased about tenfold since then and continues to increase. Canadian fishermen I talk to are reaping the benefits, because Georges Bank goes into our territorial waters. They say it's like fishing in the old days. They have never seen anything like it, and it's because of a rebuilding strategy that had diverse tools, a clear target, and clear timelines.

To wrap up, I think there's a new consensus coming up in the scientific community. We brought these people together from previously divergent factions—marine ecologists like me, fisheries scientists like Ray Hilborn, and others who previously criticized us. We've come together to develop this toolkit for rebuilding fisheries. There is a recognition that overfishing has depleted a significant number of stocks and ecosystems. The solution to that problem is to reduce fishing pressure to achieve better economic and ecological outcomes. There are numerous examples of benefits flowing directly to fishermen in increased income and increased stability of the resource. There's a growing recognition that there needs to be a new focus on restoring biodiversity and rebuilding fisheries. This requires a broader approach than we've taken before, using the diverse management tools that I've highlighted.

I was just in Washington last week, Washington, D.C., and I saw the excitement among policy-makers created by a piece of legislation that came into effect about ten years ago, the Magnuson-Stevens Act, which was just reauthorized two years ago. That piece of legislation has made U.S. rebuilding possible. It provides a structured framework for managing stock recovery through specific targets and timelines--that is, where you want the stock to recover to, and the point in time at which the target is to be reached.

I'll close with an analogy. To me it's like rebuilding a house that has broken down. What do you need? Well, you need a target, a plan, and a timeline for your contractor. You can't just say it has to happen sometime. It has to happen this year or next year. This is what the U.S. has done, and this is what Canada is lacking. Rebuilding, if it occurs, is a political process here. It's not a process that has a structured approach based on targets and timelines. We talked to the minister about this earlier today, and she was very interested in reauthorization of the Fisheries Act, because it's something that takes the political pressure out of the system and puts everything on a biological basis.

Finally, I want to point out that the high seas and the emerging fisheries that Heike talked about are still great challenges, not just in Canada, but internationally. How do we deal with the diverse pressures on high seas stock, tuna, billfish, sharks? How do we deal with emerging species such as sea cucumbers at the bottom of the food chain, which we haven't even thought of in traditional fisheries? These are some of the important science issues we have to address, and there are also policy changes that we need to be aware of.

Thank you for your time.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you.

Mr. Byrne.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to our witnesses. It's great to have you here.

You've been asked to appear before us on the revised NAFO convention and how it relates to Canadian and international fisheries policy. As a result of the revised NAFO convention, do you think Iceland will no longer object to NAFO decisions when it comes to 3L shrimp, and will the Faroe Islands no longer object to NAFO shrimp quotas?

5:05 p.m.

Assistant Professor, Biology Department, Dalhousie University

Dr. Boris Worm

I have little insight into what Iceland or the Faroe Islands will do or what they think. It's important to note that Iceland and the Faroe Islands are both very forward-thinking nations in managing their domestic fisheries. They've been strong proponents of cutting the exploitation rate and managing sustainably, unlike some other European nations, like Spain or France, for example. From that perspective, I think they may provide good and valuable input into the process.

I have to say I'm wary of the NAFO amendments, just from the perspective that the 200-mile limit has been instrumental in helping Canada and other nations get a handle on their fisheries to start with. If they wanted to, they could limit exploitation rates within their territorial waters. Without the 200-mile limit or with the weakened 200-mile limit, I think some of the tools we have developed would become impractical or much more difficult to enforce, as we see on the high seas. The problems on the high seas are endemic. I think a lot of people feel it's very difficult to do something constructive there because of that multi-stakeholder problem.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Would you be aware then that for the last several years the distant-water fishing fleets of Iceland and the Faroe Islands are the very states that have filed objections to NAFO decisions and are now currently fishing shrimp unilaterally?

5:05 p.m.

Assistant Professor, Biology Department, Dalhousie University

Dr. Boris Worm

No, I'm not aware of that.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Do you think the revised NAFO convention meets your expectations for stronger multilateral international rule of law? Do you have a comment on that?

5:05 p.m.

Assistant Professor, Biology Department, Dalhousie University

Dr. Boris Worm

I don't have insight into the specific wording of the document. As I said, I think if it weakens the provisions for a 200-mile limit and fishing within the jurisdiction of the 200-mile limit, it will worry me.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

In 2006 you published in a very respected, highly prestigious journal, Science, concerns that by 2048, world fish stocks will indeed collapse. There was some criticism of your work, I think you'll agree. In particular Dr. Hilborn from the University of Washington stated that your thesis could not be supported. Subsequent to that, you republished with Hilborn and several other co-authors another entry in Science, where you stepped down from your original 2006 position. How would you categorize it?

5:05 p.m.

Assistant Professor, Biology Department, Dalhousie University

Dr. Boris Worm

Not really. Just to clarify for the committee, the 2006 study was a study done to understand the impacts of biodiversity laws on human well-being, one of which is fisheries, but there are other things, like water quality and other issues, that we dealt with. So it was a fairly broad treatment of the benefits the ocean provides to society—economic and other benefits—and how they're impacted by the loss of species. We showed that in world fisheries—and this has not been disproved or disputed—there has been a trend over the last 50 years of an increasing proportion of species collapsed or being exploited. The Food and Agriculture Organization data show that, and other data show that. That part's not disputed. What we said in the paper was that if, and only if, that trend we and others had documented were allowed to continue for another 50 years, we would eventually run out of species to fish. It was a scenario.

It was reported in the media, I agree, that fish stocks will become extinct by 2048 or something, which is not what we talked about. It was a scenario in case we just continue that historic trajectory.

There were criticisms by fisheries scientists who said this trajectory may be a general worldwide trajectory of over-exploitation, but there are some regions where we've deviated from that and are managing to rebuild.

The new paper, also in Science, called “Rebuilding Global Fisheries”, looked at those success stories, if you will, in more detail, and asked what we could learn from them. To be sure, they are few and far between, but they are instructive in telling us how to change our destructive patterns. That's something we thought was important to get out.

The important part is that we repeated the analysis in this paper of the increasing trajectory in stock collapse as we documented in 2006. And we used other data sources that were independent of the ones, better data sources than the catch data we used in 2006, and we came up with exactly the same trajectory. So that part hasn't been disputed, and I'm not stepping away from that.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

That's understood. I appreciate the way you categorize it.

You've indicated to us that you don't have particular expertise in the legalities of either the existing NAFO convention or the revised NAFO convention.

5:10 p.m.

Assistant Professor, Biology Department, Dalhousie University

Dr. Boris Worm

That's correct.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

But you seem to have a preference. Do you have an opinion about the responsibilities of the coastal state versus the flag state or distant-water fishing state when it comes to conservation? Do you think the coastal state has a particular position of supremacy when it comes to responding to and enforcing conservation and protection measures, or should it be left to a multilateral body--a mixture of both coastal states and distant-water fishing states?

5:10 p.m.

Assistant Professor, Biology Department, Dalhousie University

Dr. Boris Worm

My position, and that of the science community generally, is that the 200-mile limit is an incredibly important conservation tool that allows coastal states to be good stewards of their resources. It hasn't always worked out, but it has worked in some cases.

I talked to policy-makers in Washington last week, and they're now taking the success stories in their own waters and asking other states, through RFMOs or directly, to follow suit and basically translate their successes within the territorial waters to the high seas environment.

Bluefin tuna is a good example that I raised with the minister this morning. Rebuilding has been incredibly successful for haddock, which is within the 200-mile limit, and that's only because the entire stock is entirely within the 200-mile limit.

Bluefin tuna resides a lot within the territorial waters of the United States. It spawns in the Gulf of Mexico, goes up the coast, and comes to Canada, where it's fished. It also goes across the Atlantic, where it's fished as well. It's a mixed-stock problem. There's an eastern Atlantic stock and a western Atlantic stock.

That species has been under a rebuilding plan for the last eleven years, but the biomass has actually declined slightly, rather than increased, as in the haddock example. That's not due to biological reasons, but rather because it's managed by a multilateral body that has been ineffective in bringing down exploitation rates. That is true in almost all cases for internationally managed stocks. So there hasn't been the broad international will to bring down exploitation rates for those stocks, as required by science advice.