Evidence of meeting #19 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fishermen.
12:25 p.m.
Bloc
Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC
So you take all the decisions head on. We're talking about job losses.
12:25 p.m.
Fisheries Advisor, Association des pêcheurs professionnels membres d'équipages
Yes, when the crab fishery goes, everything goes. It's the economic driver in our region, the Acadian Peninsula. When the biomass is good, the people are good and the price is good, things go better for the crew members; that's for sure. Wages are better.
At one point, there was sharing. That changed the method of payment. Traditionally, 40% of the fishery went to crew members. When you get below a threshold, there are a lot of expenses on the ships and a lot of contingencies. Methods of payment changed, but generally, when the fishing goes well, the deckhands are better paid and take home better pay.
12:25 p.m.
Bloc
Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC
Would Mr. Brun or Mr. Comeau have any comments to make on my opening question on politicization?
12:25 p.m.
Réginald Comeau Gulf Coordinator, Maritime Fishermen's Union
I'm someone who thinks politics is often necessary in order to reach decisions different from those we've seen in the cases of BP in the Gulf of Mexico or General Motors. For us, the fishery in the Gulf of St. Lawrence is as important as the automotive industry for Ontario. We sometimes need political intervention to help us. It's not certain that we can do it ourselves, as a result of our appetite.
Let's look at what's happened in the gulf. Mr. Blais, you're originally from the Magdalen Islands. The redfish or ocean perch disappeared 30 years ago, but I'm not sure the politicians made the resource disappear. As for groundfish in the gulf and the Atlantic, I would say, as John Crosbie did, that the politicians didn't do the fishing. In the Magdalen Islands, they had problems and the herring disappeared. I'm not sure the inshore fishermen or the politicians made the herring disappear.
I think we're often the victims of our desire to force politicians to manage things. The three examples I'm going to cite are examples of specialization.
People think they can exploit a resource to the maximum and live from it. That's not necessarily true. That's why the MFU has always suggested an approach advocating the fishing of a number of species and has pressured politicians to that end. That's the only way to continue living on the coast in a reasonable manner and to enable us to occupy our territory. If you take the fisheries away from the Magdalen Islands, I'm not sure people will occupy the land long. If you take the fisheries away from the Acadian Peninsula. I'm not sure they'll be there long.
All that has to be taken into consideration. I believe that's how we have to involve our politicians. We have to show them the fairness and the necessity of having natural resources that are well shared and managed. The Department of Fisheries and Oceans may have a management problem. I don't believe we have a politician problem, but rather a management problem. We need management that takes into consideration the reality of the place, the species and the ecological situation of the place. That has to be taken into consideration.
Even if the Fisheries Act is amended, I'm not sure that will change our attitudes overnight. That's why I think our problem is more than a politician problem. It's a problem of attitude, management and culture. We think we have to fish for lobster at $2.75 or $3 a pound. The situation can't work for long that way. Two years ago, crab fishing earned less than picking blueberries. I think that's our big problem. To date, we haven't been able to sell our product. We're not sellers; we're fishermen. That's somewhat the fault of the industry in general. Luxury products such as crab, shrimp and lobster shouldn't be given away. We're currently giving them away. We have a problem in that regard. We're putting a lot of pressure on the resource and on everyone.
12:30 p.m.
NDP
Fin Donnelly NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I have a couple of questions.
Monsieur Brun, if I have this right--and maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong--you felt there were not too many entrants or fishers currently. We've heard over the days that this may be a big problem, having simply too many boats trying to catch too many crabs. Maybe you can comment a bit more--if I got that right, and that's what you said--on how you feel that to be the case.
May 28th, 2010 / 12:30 p.m.
Director General, Maritime Fishermen's Union
Our comment referred to a comparison with other fisheries that have the same type of territory and have 10 times more harvesters and 27 times more traps in the water, and they are actually managing to foster a sustainable fishery. Of course, natural cycles in those other fisheries also have made for some difficulties in past years, but with some concessions and some progressive movement toward better conservation measures, 27 times more traps in the water in about the same territory demonstrates that that fishery is going relatively well in terms of increasing.... The problem in that fishery--I'm referring to the lobster fishery, of course--is that the economics of the fishery are really impossible for the numbers that are there.
Our argument is that in fact this problem we're witnessing in terms of the drop of biomass is actually caused by the natural cycle of snow crab. In 1995, 15 years ago, there was an increase in the number of harvesters in this new access. As a matter of fact, this cycle has gone up and down ever since.
12:30 p.m.
NDP
Fin Donnelly NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC
Thank you.
Mr. MacLean, what do you think the department has to do in terms of the decisions that are being made that perhaps could be based on the area 12 situation so that it doesn't affect area 19? How can that be distinguished when it's essentially looking at the area as one, perhaps because it's in one unit?
12:30 p.m.
President, Area 19 Snow Crab Fishermen's Association
I know the trend has been to look at it as one biological stock. I'm not a scientist, so I certainly can't argue against what science says, but there is also scientific evidence that possibly it is not one stock. There is definitely a migration of crab that comes into area 19 from the Scotia Fundy side. That's been proven in the spring trawls that have been conducted for the last couple of springs. Also there are differences in the carapace condition. The overall carapace average size is 19 versus 12. There are differences in the size of the females, the quantity of females per ratio of males in area 19. So there definitely are differences in the stock between area 19 and area 12.
As far as believing it to be one biological stock, it's the same as the human population, I guess. We're one biological stock as well. Where you live may determine how long you're going to live. If you live in Moncton versus the Gaza Strip, maybe you'll have a better chance here. So being in area 19 or area 12, we feel there is certainly a difference for the future of the stock, basically because of our practices and how we fish.
I think DFO management must take into consideration the difference in practices, the differences in the geology of area 19, the different water depths. Area 19 has considerably deeper water than a lot of areas. Only three miles off the coast you can drop down to 600 feet of water, which is pretty unique in the southern gulf. There are definitely things that DFO management must do to try to split area 19 and area 12, and not lump us all under the same category.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Tilly O'Neill-Gordon Conservative Miramichi, NB
Thank you, Chair.
Welcome to our guests here today.
As you know, I'm the MP from Miramichi, New Brunswick, so there are many fishing communities in my area. Shippagan and Caraquet certainly neighbour my constituency, and I have lots of concerns from people down there as well.
Mr. MacLean, you mentioned in your introduction that area 19 should be recognized for its uniqueness. I am wondering if you can explain that. Does that have to do with the difference in the stock that you spoke about, or are there other ways in which that area has much more uniqueness to offer?
12:35 p.m.
President, Area 19 Snow Crab Fishermen's Association
Yes. It's mainly to do with what I said about the stock, and also with the difference that we are a small boat, inshore zone. We only fish day trips. We're not an offshore zone.
Our willingness to go along, I guess I would say, with DFO on introducing changes to the fishery.... We were leaders in changing the design of our traps. We were the first to adopt a conical-style trap instead of a square trap, which science says reduces the amount of soft shell or white shell being caught, which protects your stock. We did that.
As I said in the introduction, we had the first true co-management agreement in Canada, to the extent that we were integrated with paying for enforcement, air flights, and paying for science and that kind of stuff. We're unique in that aspect.
We're unique, as I said before, in the geology of our ocean floor compared to other areas. We're small. We are really the last inshore zone in the southern gulf--that I know of--that hasn't been assimilated into area 12, from the P.E.I. zones to the former area 18. They're all now part of the one big zone. We feel we are very unique, and we'd like to keep our status where we are.
We deal with local management in Antigonish. We're really managed out of Antigonish, but as the southern gulf has been considered one biological stock now, we're playing with new players again. Now we're in New Brunswick and we're dealing out of the Moncton office.
We conducted a spring survey just three weeks prior to our fishery, and for us that's a huge scientific tool to determine what's in that small zone--20 by 60 miles is very small; it's very easy for snow crab to migrate out of there. When a survey is conducted in September, it leaves until the next July for that stock to naturally die or to migrate out. We actually had that problem, and we had that problem in 2004 when we went fishing on a fall survey and the crab weren't there. There was a huge reduction in the number. That's why we sat down with management, with DFO science, and said that we had to do something to ensure the stock was there--whether it's good or bad. And that's what we did. It's been working for us, and we hope we can continue with that.
We're still operating under the co-management agreement, which is good until 2013. That's even though, due to court cases and the loss of revenue options, which have hindered us, we're still plugging away at it, and we hope to continue doing that.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Tilly O'Neill-Gordon Conservative Miramichi, NB
Have you ever offered some of these practices to other areas or suggested that they should make use of your good ideas as well and put them to use?
12:40 p.m.
President, Area 19 Snow Crab Fishermen's Association
We've suggested our practices to other areas. I think fisheries management has offered out some of the things we've done to other areas.
We're not looking to change what other areas do. We're looking to maintain doing what we're doing. And we feel that what we're doing is as close to being right as possible, in our view.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
12:40 p.m.
President, Area 19 Snow Crab Fishermen's Association
We're unique, because we're an ITQ, as I said before. We're the only one, but we have individual trap shares, and your quota is based on how many shares of the fishery you own. You can own from a maximum of 26 shares to a minimum of three shares. A share is based on the quota, which is determined by the TAC and the exploitation rate. Last year a share was 3,100 pounds; you could own a maximum of 26 of that block or a minimum of three. We have many fishers with only three shares, which gave some of the individuals 9,300 pounds last year, which is a pretty small amount. If you consider 9,300 pounds at $1.80 a pound, they didn't make a whole lot of money.
We have a total of 1,699 traps in our zone, and these are shared in different allotments—as I said, between three and 26. We were at 183, with our number, and that can be reduced. We have an integrated plan whereby one fisherman can actually buy out another one and the licence is gone. It is a self-rationalization of our fleet. We did this when we adopted “no sharing”. We have no temporary sharing in our zone; we have no new access in our zone. We took all the temporaries. All the temporary sharing was based years ago on a dollar formula and was very complicated. The fishermen decided to accept all the temporaries into the zone and put everybody on an equal licence. We did away with the uncertainty. Now we all fish at different levels, but there is no temporary access. It has gone, through permanent access.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Tilly O'Neill-Gordon Conservative Miramichi, NB
As we travelled around different areas in the last week, we also heard about the economic downturn in the United States and how it was hurting the industry as well. Does anyone want to comment on that?
12:40 p.m.
Director General, Maritime Fishermen's Union
I apologize. Could you repeat that, Tilly?
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Tilly O'Neill-Gordon Conservative Miramichi, NB
As we travelled around the areas this week we heard how the economic downturn in the United States was placing a major stress on the industry. I am wondering whether you want to comment on that, and say in what way, and things such as that.
12:40 p.m.
Director General, Maritime Fishermen's Union
It's quite obvious that a lot of the sales of the products we fish in New Brunswick and in Atlantic Canada depend quite heavily on the United States. The last few years have made it difficult for people in the States to go out with their families and have either snow crab for supper or lobster in a restaurant they'd normally go to, or to buy some for home. I think it's just normal to see that this has been very difficult for exports from here. We rely heavily, 80% to 90%, on the United States for markets for our products, especially for the large volumes we are harvesting.
What we've been promoting lately has been some increased attention to marketing, to work around the world to see where we could either find some new markets or develop the markets existing currently. I think we've been doing a good job of this in the last few years, but we need some added attention to make sure it's continuing.
12:45 p.m.
President, Area 19 Snow Crab Fishermen's Association
Since you mentioned markets and what's going on, one thing I'd like to say is, as I mentioned in my opening, that area 19 is in the process of pre-assessment for Marine Stewardship Council certification. Some other groups or areas, I know, are against this, and I'm not saying it's a great thing for the industry, but I think it's inevitable. It's going to come. There are announcements from Wal-Mart and Loblaws and Superstore and Sobeys, the Empire Group, or whoever. This seems to be the coming trend.
In the province of Nova Scotia, we are very lucky that our province is behind us and actually helping us out with some funds to start with the pre-assessment. It's a complicated assessment, but I want to mention that some help along the way from the federal department certainly wouldn't hurt either.
Thank you.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston
Thank you very much.
Gentlemen, on behalf of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans, I want to thank you for coming today and meeting with us to share your views and your answers to the questions of the members. We certainly appreciate your time. We know how busy you are.
Thank you once again.
Members, we will resume sharply at 1:15. Lunch is down the hall.
1:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston
I call this meeting back to order.
Minister, thank you very much for joining us today. No doubt you are aware that we're studying the snow crab industry in Atlantic Canada and Quebec. Today is the final leg of our trip. We began in the Gaspé region. We travelled to Newfoundland. We were in Sydney, Cape Breton, yesterday, and today we're in Moncton, New Brunswick. We really do appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedule to appear before us this afternoon to make some comments and answer some questions that the members might have.
I'll let you proceed, Minister, with your opening comments, and then we'll follow with questions.
1:15 p.m.
Rick Doucet Minister of Fisheries, Government of New Brunswick
Thank you, Rodney.
I'd like to thank you for inviting me here to these oral hearings. It's certainly a pleasure to be here presenting the Government of New Brunswick's perspective on the snow crab fishery. It's kind of interesting and somewhat ironic. You mentioned the world tour that you folks are doing across the provinces here with respect to the snow crab fishery. It's interesting today that we're in this room, and right next door to us is the roller coaster. That's typical of the fisheries.
This afternoon I will summarize our position. As you know, we are also submitting a written brief, which outlines in more detail our viewpoints. There are several issues with the snow crab fishery, and there has been much debate about the management or mismanagement that has brought us to this point—which explains my reference a moment ago to the roller coaster.
This afternoon I do not wish to continue this debate by rehashing what has happened in the past, but rather I wish to speak about what is happening today. I'm here to speak about what we feel needs to happen to stabilize this industry for a sustainable future. From our perspective, there are two major issues related to snow crab. The first, a short-term issue, relates to the current situation caused by the sudden drop in quota. The second and longer-term issue is the lack of stable access and allocation, which I believe is the reason we are facing the current situation.
There have been many changes over the years, which have eroded the viability of the original fishery. These include new fishing zones carved out of the traditional gulf fishery; amalgamation of zones; interprovincial transfers of allocations; and allocations of the snow crab resource to other fisheries. In order to instill stability in the industry going forward, DFO decisions must consider the viability of the entire industry, including processing and marketing—very key components.
Stability in the industry starts with stability in access and allocations. We feel it is also necessary that DFO respect the historic fleet shares and provincial shares under which the fishery was restructured in the late 1980s. When resource abundance varies on a known cyclical basis, particularly as it does in the case of the snow crab, distribution of surplus in high abundance years should be based on the provincial share, with access by fisheries that need it most. Temporary sharing must be designed so as not to destabilize the industry as a whole, nor create a new dependence when the resource returns to its normal level.
We reiterate to DFO today that it should gradually decrease the quota during the downward trend of the stock cycle in order to minimize the impact on the whole industry while protecting the stock. This season, the impact of the drastic quota reduction of 63% could have been avoided, and the impact is significant for all stakeholders. We must share the responsibility in supporting those impacted. This sudden reduction of quota means losses of approximately $170 million to the economy of New Brunswick alone. Also, thousands of employees are negatively affected. The snow crab industry in New Brunswick supports the equivalent of 1,900 person-years. The importance of these workers must be paramount. We have to take into consideration the impact the reduction is having on these workers.
Let me be clear. We are against over-exploitation of the resource. We understand conservation. We get it. We support quota-setting based on scientific evidence. What we are experiencing today is the result of poor planning around a known cycle in the snow crab abundance, period. Too many fishing enterprises are chasing too small a quota for anyone to have any viability.
So where do we go from here? We propose the following. Amend the present federal Fisheries Act to circumscribe the discretionary power the federal Minister of Fisheries and Oceans currently has on access and allocation decisions. A new fisheries act must provide for criteria on which access and allocation decisions will be made, rather than having such annual decisions rest on the discretion of the minister. We need to develop guiding principles and fisheries objectives for a long-term sustainable harvest and a viable industry. We're also asking for financial assistance in a rationalization of the harvesting sector to ensure that the capacity is set at levels that are sustainable in the long term.
There's a harvesting overcapacity in the groundfish, shrimp, and lobster sectors of the southern gulf. In going forward, we feel there is a great need to identify thresholds that during years of abundance would trigger changes in the allocation of the resource to other players.
Decisions have been made in the past. I do not wish to harp on their merits this afternoon, but I will say that these decisions have had an enormous negative impact on New Brunswick. The impact has not been limited to licence holders. Our processors, our supporting industries, our communities, and our provinces have felt the impact. Today I am again asking the federal government to recognize this negative impact and partner with the province in finding concrete solutions for today and for tomorrow.
We must continue to collaborate and provide stability and prosperity to our coastal communities and our workforce. We need to move forward with better management of the fisheries and learn from our past mistakes. Again, I wish to emphasize my message to this committee. We need stability and access to allocations. It's time to modernize the federal legislation.
I sound like a broken record. I'd like to know how many CCFAM or ACFAM meetings I've stood at and said we support federal legislation to take care of this, the new federal Fisheries Act. I and my Atlantic counterparts strongly support this, and we'll support it again when it comes to the table.
It's time to take responsibility for the impact of your decisions. I'd like to emphasize my message to the committee. One, we need stability and access to allocation—it's time to modernize the federal legislation. Two, it is time to take responsibility for the impact of your decisions in DFO.
Thank you for the opportunity today, Mr. Weston. I appreciate any questions or feedback.