Fisheries Committee on June 7th, 2010

[Marc Lanteigne]

We would probably require some additional resources, as usual, and probably more communication with fishermen, because they become our samplers. We have to rely on fishermen to return these crabs with the information on position and all the data that goes with it. That's what would be required.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Is that study currently occurring for all of eastern Canada, or is it limited to a particular stock or region?

[Marc Lanteigne]

It has been done in the past on a small scale, but we would like to expand it. This is my wish, to expand it more across the southern gulf to not only explain movement but also to have a better estimate of the natural mortality of crab. That can also help us to measure that component of the life cycle.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Sylvain, can I put you on the seat? Is there anything you'd like to add or delete or modify in terms of that recommendation?

[Sylvain Paradis]

No, there isn't. You know, the experts are in the field, and they know exactly what would be required to do more. We certainly know that understanding more about natural mortality and reproduction and growth processes would be of benefit, but those are all additional studies that could be useful.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Marc, the otter trawl survey has been under some criticism or concern as to whether or not it's an effective method of determining abundance. Do you put much stock or strength in the otter trawl survey? We heard testimony to the effect that it seems like an odd way to catch a crab.

[Marc Lanteigne]

I think it's a very good tool to sample crab. Because the southern gulf in particular has a soft bottom, it's probably the only area in which we can use that tool more efficiently throughout the entire distribution of the biomass. One thing I've noticed, which is kind of a cycle too, is that it seems that science has been criticized on the cycle. When we talk about going up, we're not criticized, but when the stock is going down, the criticism regarding the validity of the science starts to increase. The technique that we use is still the same. We're still using the same trawl, and it has been used efficiently during the peaks, and is still used efficiently during the valleys of the stock, the fluctuations.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Marc, you don't have expertise or personal experience in areas other than the southern gulf, but Newfoundland has a different sort of--

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

The time is gone. Sorry.

Monsieur Blais.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

A witness in Grande-Rivière, Quebec, asked us a question, or rather, mused out loud about the fact that Fisheries and Oceans Canada does not take into account the scientific advice it receives. In 2007, 2008 and 2009, DFO was advised to reduce quota levels. Why did it not lower quotas at that time?

[David Bevan]

Total catches have declined over the past five years. We have heeded the advice of our scientists and we have taken steps to reduce catches.

Last year, however, fishers asked that the quota be maintained at 22,000 tonnes and that difficult decisions be deferred. That is what they asked us to do. We sought the advice of scientists. They told us that the risk was not too great, but that we could encounter problems later. Obviously, that's what happened.

We listened to the advice and reduced catches, but the fishers were not interested in major reductions. We tried to strike a balance between their needs and the need for stock conservation. This year, we had to take much stronger action.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I'd like to come back to the scientific advice you received from your own officials at DFO. They advised you in 2007, 2008 and 2009 to lower quotas. Why was their advice disregarded?

[David Bevan]

In 2009, the fishers asked that...

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I'm talking about the scientists, not about the fishers.

[David Bevan]

The scientists said that fish stocks were clearly declining a little. We were in a cycle in which stocks were declining. There are a number of ways to manage risk and we resorted to these approaches. However, given the precautionary approach, this year we had to make some decisions that were more difficult. And we did.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

So then, let me ask the question once again. Why was the advice given by scientists in 2007, 2008 and 2009 not heeded?

[David Bevan]

Their advice did not include specific figures. They pointed out that if total catches reached a certain level, then there would be a certain element of risk. It was clear that stocks were declining. We had to make a choice. The scientists said that the risk would increase if catches were highers, and clearly, if the situation became more critical, more difficult decisions would then have to be made later. The fishers asked the minister to find a way to lessen the impact. Other persons made a similar request. It was possible to do that, but the current precautionary approach is aimed at minimizing future repercussions. It is impossible for us not to take action. We must...

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Excuse me for interrupting you. I don't want to be impolite, but time is rapidly running out.

New Brunswick's Minister of Fisheries did in fact say that he learned of the 63% reduction in the quotas through media reports. You talk about cooperation and partnership with the provinces, but this incident is symptomatic of the problem. Clearly, the provincial fisheries ministers are being treated discourteously.

[David Bevan]

The provincial ministers were on hand for the meetings with the fishers and the scientists. We had to make some calls, because there were changes made after the meetings. We were pressed this year to come to a decision because the fishing season was due to start very early as a result of high water temperatures.

I will admit, however, that we could do better as far as the provinces are concerned. However, we were quite pressed for time, given everything that happened.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you.

Mr. Donnelly.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

On the recent snow crab tour that we were just on, one of the things I heard was that in some areas, or even in parts of some areas, there seems to be too many fishers chasing too few crabs. I wonder if that's a common refrain that you hear or if that's something that you agree with.

Can you comment on that?

[David Bevan]

I think there's tremendous pressure on governments when these cycles go up. For the people in the neighbourhood--when the groundfish were collapsing, especially--what do we do with them? It's one reason why there's a number of people in the fishery. It does create economic pressure on the low part of the cycle, but on the high part, there's room for everybody and they can all make a good living.

We now have low abundance and low price because of the economic circumstances. That does create a very difficult time for harvesters, processors, etc. It's not a conservation issue. It's just that, at this part of the cycle, they're not able to make the kind of money they need to make to pay the bills and to live well. We hope they will get that opportunity once it starts going up again.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Isn't there a multi-species issue as well? Is it not a factor that they're now fishing different species in order to make a living?

[David Bevan]

Most enterprises have a number of licences associated with them. Some crab fishermen have lobster licences, some have pelagics, and so on. If there are hardships in one fishery, they may start looking at using their licences in others.

That perhaps is something that we should be considering more, as part of the normal process, because to have people dependent on one fishery means, in the crab fishery, a $2-million boat could be used for four weeks and then it's on the beach. That's not very good use of your capital, and you have people with short-term employment. Having longer operations based on multi-species may be something that we would like to consider in the future.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

It seems from the comment, if I'm hearing you correctly, that with the number of fishers we have in all areas, when the biomass is high it is okay, but when it's low it's not okay.