Fisheries Committee on Oct. 28th, 2010

[Jon O'Riordan]

Of the ones that were not implemented, as far as we know, the forum recommended that a body independent of the natural resources agency and independent of DFO would be undertaken to have an oversight over this whole ecosystem approach, which marries marine planning with watershed planning. The forum felt that salmon were under threat as a result of a changing climate and continuing loss of ecological functionalities in watersheds because of human activities. It was so important to maintain a proper functioning ecosystem that a third-party, independent agency should keep an eye on what's going and report to the public, through the parliaments, the status of the health of both marine and freshwater ecosystems. As far as we know, that recommendation hasn't been acted upon at all.

The other one that we recommended, as I mentioned, was that money be set aside by the federal and provincial governments and industry to put together an independent panel to look at closed containment, come up with proper specifications for what closed containment should look like, help to invest in a pilot project, try it out and see whether it was functional and sustainable and economic in an ecological sense, and hopefully resolve once and for all whether closed containment was a long-term future for aquaculture. As far as we know, that investment hasn't taken place yet.

[John Fraser]

I wonder if I can add something to what Dr. O'Riordan has said.

First of all, Joyce Murray, it's very good to see you. I was one of your staunchest supporters when you were provincial environment minister, which I think you know. You have some sense of both sides to this thing, which is very helpful.

In further answer to one of your questions, we received a couple of days ago a confidential document from Andy Thompson, who is a senior DFO scientist and first-rate person. He gave us a very short list of the 16 recommendations in our document--which ones have been implemented or are in the process of being implemented, and which ones, because they are more directly aimed at provincial administration, have not been.... They're not tried to incorporate them into the federal scene.

We can make a copy of that for you, but I have to say, in all honesty, that I just got it the other day. I have not been able to go through, for instance, the draft regulations and try to compare them all.

There is another thing I want to emphasize. Dr. Jon O'Riordan has done this. We said, listen, if you want to save salmon and the environment, you have to get on an ecosystem approach. Anybody who doubts this—for those of you who have never been out there—just take a look at DFO's record. They have all this stuff documented, from Hope on the Fraser River down to the mouth of the Fraser River. You will see a startling example—it won't surprise anybody who knows anything, but it will surprise somebody who's never been there—of what has happened when an ecosystem approach has not even been attempted, and bits and pieces of this, that, and everything have been taken away. As a consequence, the overall ecosystem is severely damaged.

Don't have any illusions that business...and remember, I'm a Tory. I grew up in a law firm, and my father was an independent businessman within the forest industry, so I'm not against business. But there is an element in business that doesn't want an ecosystem approach. You may as well know this.

Here's an example. There's a guy named Nigel Protter, who's a good citizen, and he runs SyncWave Systems. He referred to our approach to an ecosystem approach as follows. He said you can't succeed with ecosystem-based management. He said he was in favour of sustainable development, with “trade-offs” instead.

But we've lost all our salmon streams in the Vancouver area. We've lost a great number of salmon streams that come into the Fraser River between the ocean and Hope. We've lost habitat all over the place.

And it's been because of trade-offs. Nobody has been defending the ecosystem.

So we felt very strongly about this. If you take a look at our members, they're not a bunch of crazies. They're very sensible people. In fact, in ordinary terms, they're probably pretty small-c conservative. That their recommendations are radical is evidence of how badly we have not met up with our responsibilities to look after the ecosystem.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Mr. Fraser, if you could provide that document through the clerk, that would be much appreciated.

Monsieur Blais.

[John Fraser]

I'd be very pleased to do that.

I just want to say, in front of everybody, that we've been very impressed, both Dr. O'Riordan and I, at the courtesy and efficiency of your clerk.

So we will get that to him.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you very much.

Monsieur Blais.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Good morning, Mr. Fraser. I would like to let you know off the bat that I'm not of a conservative but rather of a progressive nature.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[John Fraser]

I just want to say that a real Conservative can be pretty darn progressive when it's required.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

However, I am still liberal enough to allow you to share your comments.

Based on what you said earlier, my understanding is that you share most of Mr. Harry's positions, but not all of them. I would like you to talk about the things you disagree on.

[John Fraser]

First of all, I'm certainly in agreement with Mr. Harry with respect to the economic advantages to first nations of properly administered fish farms. He mentioned Klemtu. We know a little bit about Klemtu. That place has been operated by first nations for a number of years. It's operated very well. The good things he said about it are true.

We also know about the Skeena River, and the Bulkley, and the Maurice, that whole Skeena River system. What he didn't say was that the vast majority of first nations on the Skeena were absolutely and utterly opposed to putting fish farms at the mouth of the Skeena because they felt that there was a danger of them affecting the salmon stocks upon which they depend.

I'm not quarreling with much of what he said. I just think there are some other things that have to be pointed out. There is not unanimity, as far as we could find out, among first nations with respect to fish farms. Now, it may well be that if the recommendations we've made are implemented by the federal government now, and that the sea lice and other problems are contained, then that will be better for our first nations.

I'm expected to be completely frank in front of your committee, and I have to say that I don't agree with everything he said; I agree with much of it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you, Monsieur Blais.

Mr. Donnelly.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank all three of our witnesses for coming and providing their testimony today.

I would certainly like to acknowledge the good work of the Pacific Salmon Forum. I think they produced an excellent report. Their 16 recommendations I know I've looked at, and I hope the government has. It sounds like they are looking at those recommendations.

In terms of your comments, John, we have received the report, and we certainly have looked at those recommendations. I certainly appreciate you highlighting that and bringing it forward.

I have two specific questions. I'm wondering, Mr. Fraser, if you could comment on the suggestion of B.C. fish farms moving to closed containment. What are your feelings on that?

I'll just add the other question to Mr. O'Riordan. The comment was made that you determined that sea lice from fish farms was a problem on the west coast. In fact, it was referred to as “ground zero”. You also made a comment that lice has no lethal effect but has a sublethal effect. Could you just comment or elaborate a bit more on what that means?

[John Fraser]

Do you want me to go first?

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Yes, thank you.

[John Fraser]

Concerning closed containment, a legislative committee was established by the premier in British Columbia. The premier, in his wisdom, decided that the majority on the legislative committee should be from the New Democratic Party and the minority from the government party, the Liberals. They held hearings all over the province. I am not saying that was a bad thing to do, but it was one thing that we did not do because we knew exactly what we were going to get.

The nastiness between “pro” fish farm people and “anti” fish farm people in British Columbia is remarkable. There is no use pretending it isn't there. All you have to do is pay a little bit of attention and you will find it is there. We certainly avoided having public meetings that would have just resulted in a great row with both sides shouting at each other.

But this legislative committee did that and they came up with a majority recommendation--remember, the NDP had the majority, and the Liberals didn't agree with them--that all fish farms should be closed containment and it should be done within a certain number of years or else they should be closed down.

The problem with this is what do you mean by closed containment? There has been a closed containment operation going on, on Vancouver Island under a gentleman named Buchanan, for some time, trying to persuade everybody that it can be done in the ocean. I've been there, I've looked at it, and I've talked to the people who were working on it. And it wasn't really closed containment. If closed containment is to work, it has to keep the sea lice out and keep the sea lice in, those that do get in, plus anything else.

So what has really happened is that the proponents of closed containment have shifted their position to, yes, closed containment, but on land. Now the industry and others have said this would cost too much. There are other people in the private sector who are working very hard to persuade others that closed containment on land is economically feasible. And I don't know whether it is or not. But what we wanted to do was stop the shouting at each other and get an independent committee to sit down and ask if we could operate these things on closed containment. If it's in the ocean and you can really do it, fine. If you can't, can you do it on land?

What we said is that this government and industry should get together and find out whether it is possible to do it. And there are reasons for that. First of all, if you can get closed containment to work, then you almost eliminate the sea lice issue and that is very good for the fish farms. But it's also very good for the fish. So closed containment is something we believe should be pursued.

If it costs some money to pursue it, it's still worth it, because, as Ruth Salmon and Clare Backman know perfectly well and expressed to you, there is value in the fish farm industry on the west coast. But we've got to do it in such a way that it's acceptable to most Canadians, and one of the ways would be to find an effective closed containment system.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you.

Mr. Weston.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Chair, could I just hear from Mr. O'Riordan?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

I do apologize for cutting people off, but if you take note of the clock, Mr. Donnelly, you will see we are running very short on time. If Mr. Weston wants to follow up on your question, that's fine.

Mr. Weston, please proceed.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thanks.

John Fraser, former Speaker of the House, former Minister of Fisheries, former Minister of the Environment, expert on the Constitution--your passion for Canada and for our resources has only grown, so we applaud you, we thank you, and we thank you for being here this morning.

I apologize to the other witnesses, because there may be a little bit of overshadowing that goes on, but we do thank all three of you for being here.

[John Fraser]

Just let me say, John Weston, you're biased in my favour.

He used to work on my executive committee when I was an elected member.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Just so you know, in the sense of a poetic circle, the Honourable John Fraser is now on my executive committee.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

At any rate, you said something quite remarkable that perhaps gives us all hope. We all see the socio-economic benefits if this can work. You said that if you do it right, you can have fish farms and the sea lice can be controlled. And then you mentioned that an individual we heard from earlier, Clare Backman, is one of the best industry spokesmen you could find.

That tells us that the industry has been compelled by you and by others to move ahead and find somebody who can do this right. Do you want to elaborate a little more on your optimism that this can be done, and it can be done properly?