Fisheries Committee on March 1st, 2011

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

I call this meeting to order.

I want to thank our guests for joining us here today.

We have with us Monsieur Grégoire, from the Canadian Coast Guard.

Just so you're aware, we usually give about 10 minutes for opening comments. Then we move into questions from committee members. As you have probably noticed, committee members usually take this meeting to have some lunch as well, so hopefully that doesn't bother you. I know that committee members will be listening intently while they're enjoying their lunch as well.

Mr. Grégoire, I would ask you to introduce your associate who is with you here today and then proceed to your opening comments.

[Marc Grégoire, Commissioner, Fisheries and Oceans Canada, Canadian Coast Guard]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and good morning.

Good morning, honourable members. I wish to thank the committee for the opportunity to appear before you today as commissioner of the coast guard.

I am also pleased to introduce Claude Langis, Regional Director of the Fleet Branch for the Canadian Coast Guard, Quebec Region. This is the first time I am speaking to you as commissioner—but surely not the last—and I would like to take this opportunity to tell you that I am looking forward to working with you. The committee has been an ardent defender of the coast guard, and I am committed to maintaining this important relationship during my term as commissioner.

We are here today to talk to you about how the Canadian Coast Guard scientific research icebreaker, the CCGS Amundsen, operates in scientific mode. In order to better understand the coast guard's role in this one-of-a-kind partnership in Canada, I need to go back a few years.

In February 2002, a group of 15 Canadian universities represented by Université Laval submitted, to the Canada Foundation for Innovation, a project called "A Canadian Research Icebreaker to Study the Changing Arctic Ocean". This project required a $27.5-million investment to overhaul, retrofit and certify the CCGS Sir John Franklin, an old Canadian Coast Guard ship, in order to transform it into a state-of-the-art scientific icebreaker.

The same year, the Government of Canada approved this project through grants from various partners such as the Canada Foundation for Innovation, the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada, and the international joint ventures fund.

The Canadian Coast Guard and Université Laval, which was designated as representative of the consortium, initiated measures to establish a memorandum of understanding setting out the roles, responsibilities, and operating procedures for this partnership, which we plan to continue for the rest of the vessel's design life, until about 2017.

The key points of this agreement are as follows.

The Canadian Coast Guard and Université Laval share the initial costs of making the vessel seaworthy.

Université Laval assumes all the costs of modification for scientific equipment.

The Canadian Coast Guard maintains the vessel in a seaworthy condition and makes it available for scientific use for 152 days per year over a period of six months from May to October.

The Canadian Coast Guard uses the vessel from November to April for regular icebreaking, escort, and flood control operations, mostly in the St. Lawrence River and Gulf.

All costs of operating the vessel in scientific mode are paid by the scientific consortium.The vessel remains federal property at all times. The Canadian Coast Guard retains command of the vessel at all times.

Once the agreement was signed, a long modification/overhaul period followed requiring a $30.7-million investment. The Canada Foundation for Innovation supplied $27.5 million, and the Canadian Coast Guard supplied $3.2 million. This led to the development of the first large-scale scientific mission, the Canadian Arctic Shelf Exchange Study (CASES).

On August 26, 2003, a further federal investment of $25 million created ArcticNet, a new network of centres of excellence. It should be mentioned that many federal departments, including Fisheries and Oceans Canada, are also partners of this network. As a result, ArcticNet became the main charter of the vessel, through Université Laval, as I mentioned earlier.

The Canadian Coast Guard's roles in this partnership are: to keep the vessel in seaworthy condition and carry out maintenance in accordance with marine regulations; to ensure the scientific mission plan is operationally feasible; to contribute its marine expertise in Arctic waters, such as ice navigation, for instance; to ensure the safety of persons on board and on the ice at all times; to staff the vessel in accordance with regulations and scientific needs; to coordinate and manage logistics, and specifically, food and fuel resupply and crew changes; and to make the vessel available for emergencies, as was the case for the evacuation of 128 passengers from the Clipper Adventurer late in the summer of 2010 when that vessel was grounded.

Several Department of Fisheries and Oceans scientists are collaborating on ArcticNet research projects, in addition to a number of other federal departments and agencies. The department also participates in the governance of the Network of Centres of Excellence as a member of the Research Management Committee. A colleague at the department, in the Oceans and Science Sector, is a member of the Amundsen board of directors (Canadian Coast Guard). The former assistant deputy minister of science was on the ArcticNet board of directors. This seat on the board is now occupied by Indian and Northern Affairs Canada. The Oceans and Science Sector also contributes approximately $1 million in cash and in kind to ArcticNet through its collaborative efforts.

The Canadian Coast Guard's partnership with ArcticNet provides the Government of Canada with a number of strategic benefits. The participation of a federal government vessel in scientific research provides Canada with the opportunity to position itself on the world stage of Arctic science. As well, missions in Arctic waters help ensure Canada's presence in the far north. In addition, the CCGS Amundsen's missions have been widely covered in the media, which greatly increases the Government of Canada's visibility.

In summary, the Canadian Coast Guard is the owner of the CCGS Amundsen and the operational expert.

Mr. Chair and honourable members, I thank you for your attention. We will pleased to take your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you very much for your presentation this morning.

Ms. Murray, you're going to lead off in questions.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for the presentation. I am very clear on the importance of partnerships, of government entities working with the private sector, with the non-governmental sector, and with the academic sector, of course, to be more effective in achieving common objectives.

My questions wouldn't want to minimize the importance of this kind of collaboration. In fact, I see it as a very positive initiative. We've heard from previous panel members about that.

I have some concerns. As the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development had a somewhat critical analysis of your organization's capacity to carry out some aspects of its core mission, can you tell me whether the time, the investment, being on the board, and the requirements to be part of this partnership, which, despite the benefits.... There are the benefits of media and enhancing the reputation of the Government of Canada, which I'm sure is a worthy objective, or having Canada's role on the world stage being celebrated through this. Those are objectives for the Government of Canada, for sure.

The public's expectation of the coast guard around oil spills I think is also a very important objective. My concern is that if the department is spending time and resources on boards and in complex partnerships that have other objectives, is that taking away from the leadership's ability to dedicate resources to the key aspects of, for example, spill protection? There, we hear about a number of deficiencies in the department's analysis and in its ability to even identify the capacity needed to properly carry out those responsibilities, to direct others in the private sector who are positioned to assist with spill response, and to act as the central responsible body coordinating other government departments. Could you respond to that concern?

[Marc Grégoire]

First of all, it's a very important question. To go back to the beginning of your question about the environment commissioner, I have met the commissioner, with my team, and we at the coast guard certainly welcome his recommendations. We know that there is room to improve and we will implement all of the recommendations that he made just before Christmas.

That being said, you wonder if the role of the Amundsen is taking away something from the coast guard. I'd like to point out that, on the contrary, the Amundsen is an additional asset to the coast guard. The Amundsen was to be decommissioned. It was for sale, actually. From 2000 to 2002, it was a surplus asset that was to be disposed of through crown assets disposal.

At that point in time it was renamed. It was decertified as the Sir John Franklin. It was called the “Old 02” and it was put up for sale. The consortium, through Université Laval, came with this proposal to keep it rather than sell it, and to invest in it and reactivate it, which we did. The ship was put back into service in 2003. I see the Amundsen as an additional asset, and if a search and rescue operation is required...as was the case last year, the Amundsen was the first vessel on site and the Amundsen actually was the vessel that evacuated the passengers from the clipper.

We would do the same thing for an oil spill event in the Arctic. The Amundsen, if it were the closest vessel, would go there. It is equipped with the proper equipment to respond to a spill.

We have also made some other improvements in the Arctic with regard to oil spills. The coast guard has deployed Arctic packs in a number of small communities across the Arctic. We also have a depot in Hay River from where we can deploy large amounts of equipment for oil spills. A number of organizations in Canada can be called on for help in the north, but north of 60, there is a different regime for oil spills.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thank you for that answer.

It seems to me that if we need a boat like this in that area, then to have a vessel that is being used by other organizations, which happens to be there.... Maybe that's second-best: the coast guard not needing to have a vessel that can provide the kind of service you've just referred to.

[Marc Grégoire]

No, but we have about half a dozen of those vessels in the Arctic in the summer season, so this is one of them. If there were an event somewhere, we would send the vessel closest to the event. I should say, though, that should we do that, we would have to subtract from the operation some costs from the bill that we send Université Laval every year, because they wouldn't want to pay for an oil spill cleanup or for a search and rescue operation. We would have to subtract that number of days from the number of days for which they pay us for usage.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Are there representatives of the coast guard on this vessel when it's operating through the ArcticNet partnership?

[Marc Grégoire]

The full crew is from the coast guard. We operate the vessel and our commanding officer is commanding the ship.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

This vessel has been in an area that has been identified as a candidate for marine protected status; it's the Beaufort Sea large ocean management area. A number of years ago, there was the beginning of an integrated marine planning exercise for the Beaufort Sea. Is the coast guard contributing to that moving ahead?

[Marc Grégoire]

Well, the coast guard is providing the platform, so I think your question relates more to scientists. The coast guard is providing the platform. We also have scientists on board some of our other icebreakers, but not to the same extent that we have on this one.

This one is totally devoted to the ArcticNet mission for about 152 days per year. They decide on the scientific mission they will run. We decide if what they want is operationally feasible. If the answer is yes, we just go and run the boat, and they pay for all of the costs. They pay for the salary of our crew. They pay for the fuel. They pay for the food. They pay for the helicopter time, should they use it. There is 100% cost recovery.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

So if the boat is in an area that is calving ground for narwhal, just to throw out an example, the coast guard has no role in ensuring that the activities of the boat don't pose a risk to the environment and to species of concern?

[Marc Grégoire]

Not to my knowledge.

[Claude Langis, Fleet Regional Director, Quebec region, Fisheries and Oceans Canada, Canadian Coast Guard]

That is not part of the coast guard's current mandate. If I may, I would add to what the commissioner said and point out that the coast guard used to have six icebreakers in the Arctic, including one dedicated exclusively to the western Arctic. Since the Amundsen's arrival in 2003, generally speaking, two units have patrolled the waters in the western Arctic every year, including the Beaufort Sea. The Amundsen and the Pierre Radisson have been in the western Arctic since 2003. That is an additional unit intended to provide emergency response at the government's request.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you, Ms. Murray.

Monsieur Blais.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, gentlemen.

I will be more direct in asking my question. We are wondering whether there is the appearance of a conflict of interest given that an oil company is funding a Canadian Coast Guard vessel. When you learned that ArcticNet, the lessee, was doing business with oil companies, I would think that not only did an alarm bell go off, but that a yellow light lit up in the coast guard's offices. I would like to know why you do not see that as a real or apparent conflict of interest.

[Marc Grégoire]

I would first like to point out that I am new to the coast guard. I joined the organization in June 2010. When I learned about the operation of the Amundsen and the history behind it, which I tried to summarize for you, I was told that when the initial application was made to the Canada Foundation for Innovation, it was already known that the researchers would seek funding from oil companies. That was already known in 2002, and it was indicated in the application. Everyone was aware of it.

As for whether there is a conflict of interest or not, I asked myself the same question, as the commissioner of the Canadian Coast Guard. To the extent that our role is strictly operational, I do not see a conflict of interest. We do not carry out research for oil companies. All the research activities we conduct on the vessel are in the public domain. To my knowledge, none of the activities being carried out on the vessels is in the private domain, specifically, the property of the oil companies. There is no direct relationship between us and the oil companies. The funding they provide goes to ArcticNet. We have an agreement with Université Laval, and they are the only ones we send our bill to. Université Laval then draws the money from ArcticNet.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

The direct relationship is not what I have a problem with. It is the indirect relationship where the nuances exist. Correct me if I am wrong. You said that the Canadian Coast Guard established a contract for the Amundsen directly with ArcticNet, and that is true. There is no problem there.

The oil companies, however, fund the agreement indirectly. Furthermore, when oil company representatives appeared before the committee, they made it very clear that most of the activities were research-based, but they also said that some of those activities affected them. Part of the agreement between ArcticNet and the coast guard covers research that concerns the oil companies. You seem to be saying that is not the case. My understanding is that the people at BP—and other such companies leasing the vessel indirectly—do, at some point, use it for their own research purposes.

[Marc Grégoire]

As far as I know, no activity is 100% carried out for these oil companies.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Not 100%, but a portion. When I say a portion, that does not mean 100%.

[Marc Grégoire]

We know that oil companies contribute to ArcticNet's funding. It is in the public domain. As I said earlier, that was known back in 2002 at the time of the funding application.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

According to you then, the fact that the vessel serves oil companies' interests does not create a conflict of interest, either real or apparent?

[Marc Grégoire]

According to your interpretation, I could answer that it does. There may be a perceived conflict of interest, but that is not how it really works. We are doing research.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Hence the expression “appearance of a conflict of interest”. I agree with you that there is no real conflict of interest. I am talking about the appearance of one.