Fisheries Committee on April 14th, 2010

[Dr. Mark Sheppard]

Again to reiterate your question, was it surprising to me that the farmed fish are now referred to by Justice Hinkson as being a fishery? I think his decision was a bit surprising to most people. My understanding is that some questions still circulate around the wild fishery versus the aquaculture fishery and what happens when these fish are inside the cages and who owns them. We certainly know who is going to manage them.

I'm not quite sure what else to comment. Being from a veterinarian background and being from the Province of British Columbia and the animal health branch, where most of the farm animals we monitor are actually farm animals—farm chickens, farm pigs—it just seemed natural that these should be treated just like the chickens, in that they are farmed fish and managed from egg to harvest.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Further to the affidavit filed by the federal government, the provincial government decided to transfer or cede its current responsibilities to the federal government.

Did the province have any other choice but to cede management of aquaculture to the federal government?

[Dr. Mark Sheppard]

Right. I understand the question, thank you, the question being could the provincial government have made a different choice as to what was finally taken and retain the right to manage aquaculture in British Columbia. It's a very good question. I've had the same question.

I'm afraid I'm not qualified to answer that question. As I said, I'm not a policy-maker. I'm a manager. Those decisions are certainly made at the political level. I'm just following what will happen in the future, and we're all waiting to see what the Department of Fisheries and Oceans will present to us. I'm trusting that it will carry on being managed very well by Fisheries and Oceans Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Donnelly.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In reference to the graphs, I would be very interested in getting copies of those.

Dr. Sheppard, thank you for being in front of the committee and providing your comments.

One of the handouts, in the background information, says this with regard to Slice:

From a strictly medical perspective, the drug protects the fish from lice for a short period. If medicated fish are exposed to unmedicated lice a second time (from various marine sources), those lice may re-infest the recently medicated fish. This situation, as it recently occurred in the Nootka area, is not evidence of drug resistance even though some may interpret it that way.

I have a couple of questions on that. One, I'm wondering if you could describe what drug resistance looks like. This is not drug resistance, in your opinion. What does drug resistance look like?

Second, why are some saying that this is, in their opinion, evidence of a case of resistance to Slice?

[Dr. Mark Sheppard]

Right. Both are good questions.

If I may, I will answer the second question first. The development of drug resistance is an extremely complex phenomenon. Some people--who are not qualified to make comments on it, in my opinion--have decided to put forth a wildly speculative conclusion based on a graph, which, as I think I've explained to you, had many other factors that needed to be considered before any conclusion was made on that point.

That case in itself is a matter of someone who either didn't understand the science or simply preferred to move forth with a perspective to suit their agenda.

As to drug resistance and what it looks like, if you'd like I can refer to antibiotic resistance in bacteria. Or is your question, Mr. Donnelly, specifically about lice?

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

It's about Slice.

[Dr. Mark Sheppard]

Okay; so Slice and lice.

By the way, for those who don't know, Slice is the trade name for a drug. Its generic name is emamectin benzoate. It's used in different countries and it's very effective at killing all life stages of lice when it works.

In other countries it's used multiple times each year. They use it every six weeks sometimes, for example. In B.C., as I said, we use it once a year normally.

Drug resistance can develop if there is a repetitive use of the product numerous times over short periods. If the drug is not effective at killing all the lice or all the bacteria, the animals that survive--the lice or the bacteria--then have the opportunity to pass on their genetic protection, resistance, of the drug to the offspring. So when the drug is used again, there's more protection. More animals survive and they keep passing on that genetics. It takes quite some time before drug resistance develops in a population of parasites or bacteria. Unfortunately, that is what we're seeing, failed treatments in other parts of the world where they are using Slice on numerous occasions.

Unfortunately, the lice...and again, we're talking here about the Atlantic Ocean louse, a very different animal from what we have here in British Columbia. That's what they're seeing, and as a result, they have to use alternate products to try to control their lice infestations on their fish.

Does that answer your question?

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

I think so.

[Dr. Mark Sheppard]

Well, if I may, if it didn't answer your question, I can see how, for someone without the depth of knowledge to look at a graph to see that there's a peak, there's a medication, then there's another peak, then yes, I suppose if we had drug resistance, that might be what it looked like. But I would still go through the other 20 factors first before making that conclusion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you.

Mr. Kamp.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for coming, Mr. Sheppard.

I think it's fair to say that most of us here are not scientists, and you have done a good job of explaining some of these issues to us in a way we can understand.

After December this year, when there's a changeover of management to the federal government, what do you expect your role or your department's role to be? Do you know that yet? Let me start there.

[Dr. Mark Sheppard]

Thank you very much, Mr. Kamp.

Your questions are my questions. I trust that Fisheries and Oceans Canada very much appreciates the current activity in terms of audit and surveillance of the fish industry right now. Verbally they've said that they'd like to continue it. I know that the environmental non-governmental organizations, the ENGOs, are quite appreciative of the fact that we're keeping a finger on its pulse, and they feel confident that we're watching for the things we need to be watching for.

The provincial government surely is happy with the situation. Our program has been touted as exceeding international standards. I know that the Canadian Food Inspection Agency is suggesting that it would be nice for all other agribusinesses to follow suit. Again, it's unfortunate that you didn't get the graphs. We can measure the amount of chemicals used in fish right down to grams per metric tonne of animal produced.

I think DFO wants to continue this. I think they feel the need to continue this, but I don't know how it will look. I'm looking forward to seeing their new regulations. I think they will tighten up some of the regulatory requirements for fish health. Right now, the fish health plans are tagged to a term and condition of licence, whereas I have a feeling that the federal regulations may firm that up and turn it into a regulation. I'm not quite sure whether I'll be involved or if my team will be involved or where it will be, but there will be some semblance of it.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

It's clear to you that fish health management will, after December, become a responsibility of the federal government. That's not something that's being negotiated as part of any sort of agreement with the provincial government at this point, as far as you know. In some way, the federal government will have to discharge that responsibility.

[Dr. Mark Sheppard]

Yes, I feel confident that it will continue. I do not know whether it will be a federal responsibility or a provincial responsibility at this point. We're waiting to hear the final conclusions on that.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Are you expecting to have any role in the Cohen commission?

[Dr. Mark Sheppard]

I don't anticipate having a role in the Cohen commission. I'm not opposed to bearing witness to it, if called upon. I'm happy to present information from our database if Judge Cohen feels that it fits.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Returning to the specifics of what we've been talking about, let me start with a sort of general statement. In fact, it was a statement made here--you've referred to it already--but let me just bring it back.

When Alexandra Morton was here, she referred a number of times to viruses and bacteria and the threat they pose, the imminent threat, I think it would be fair to say. She also referred to the graphs from the Ministry of Agriculture and Lands. She said, and I quote, that “for a scientist, they're a neon sign warning of drug resistance”.

It sounds as if you disagree with that. Would you like to comment further on that?

[Dr. Mark Sheppard]

As I said, the DFO scientists, the scientists within the province, the private researchers, and the veterinarians would not consider the graph that she is referring to as a neon sign of drug resistance. As I said, that aspect would have to appear on the differential list. I'd put it at the very bottom. The graph really reflects a count of lice over a period of time. It does not reflect the activity that happened or the environmental conditions that happened or the population dynamics that happened within that period of time. I hope I've explained those components to you today.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

You did very clearly, and we do appreciate that.

Dr. Sheppard, what's your relationship to the Association of Aquaculture Veterinarians of B.C.?

[Dr. Mark Sheppard]

I have been a member of that association for the last 20 years. I play little or no role in the association now other than receiving invitations to the meetings that occur once or twice a year and any letters or announcements they put forth. I don't play an active role.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Who are the members primarily?

[Dr. Mark Sheppard]

The Association of Aquaculture Veterinarians of B.C. comprises private veterinarians who are working in fish, corporate veterinarians who work for the aquaculture companies, research veterinarians, and veterinarians within the provincial and federal government who are involved in fish. There are some pharmaceutical veterinarians in the group. The active membership is about 10 veterinarians in British Columbia, I suppose, give or take. There are other members who of course receive information, and these would be members from out of province who are keen to hear what's happening in British Columbia from a veterinary perspective.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

How many members of that association or other private veterinarians or aquaculture experts disagree with your conclusion that the evidence doesn't show any resistance to sea lice? In other words, are there any experts or aquaculture veterinarians that you know of who are drawing the same conclusion as Alexandra Morton, for example?

[Dr. Mark Sheppard]

I know of none. In fact, the opposite; they are vehemently opposed to her opinion of that.

That said, again, in the brief that I put forth is a list of research-related activities that are either ongoing or about to start in British Columbia to address this topic of lice and the use of chemicals and the genetics around lice, not because we have drug resistance in British Columbia but because British Columbia is in a very unique position in that we're one of the few areas in the world that has the opportunity to measure these things before it happens.

So this type of activity is going to occur, which will allow us to benchmark the current situation in 2010 and give us the tools, then, to monitor much more closely for responses to drug use from this point forward.