Evidence of meeting #12 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 41st Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was industry.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ruth Salmon  Executive Director, Canadian Aquaculture Industry Alliance
Clare Backman  Director, Sustainability, Marine Harvest Canada
Daniel Stechey  President, Canadian Aquaculture Systems Inc.

Rosane Doré Lefebvre NDP Alfred-Pellan, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thanks also to the witnesses for being here today.

Mr. Backman, you said at the beginning that cleaning closed containment facilities needs a lot of water. With net pens right in the ocean, you cannot necessarily clean the aquaculture facilities.

I would like to know about the environmental impacts. Ms. Salmon mentioned that there is no significant difference between the two, but if the waste is not cleaned and it goes directly into the ocean, there must be a significant impact.

4:35 p.m.

Director, Sustainability, Marine Harvest Canada

Clare Backman

Yes. I think the question is regarding the environmental impact comparison, that is, the impacts of net-pen facilities in the ocean compared to recirculating aquaculture systems. It seems that the impacts are more apparent or greater in the net pens, and maybe less in the recirculating systems.

In terms of the specific impacts, there are differences. For example, regarding my earlier comment about the waste from the fish leaving the nets and going to the ocean floor, you don't see that in a recirculating system because that's filtered out. It becomes a very concentrated waste, which must be dealt with. The large volumes of that haven't been explored, so exactly what will happen with that is unknown. However, it won't be dispersed into the environment.

It's important to understand that the release of waste into the ocean from the net pens is not free to the environment right now; it is in fact something that is internalized through the costs that we bear from monitoring and reporting and adhering to regulations. The majority of that is internalized, not externalized. A component may be externalized, but the majority is internalized at this point. Part of the work with the environmental movement in British Columbia is trying to go through each of these components to identify the ones that remain externalized, and then trying to put them into a model for monetization. We're still working through that. It's quite complicated.

I'm going to step away from that to some work that was done for the purpose of the Cohen commission. It's been entered into evidence at the Cohen commission, and it involved an LCA, a life-cycle analysis, approach to a comparison of net-pen and recirculating aquaculture. Again, we were using the information from our pilot proposal, which we have been putting a lot of effort into this year.

It was very interesting to look at that, because, as I was saying a moment ago, there are some localized impacts at a net-pen location that we could discuss. They don't appear to be present at a recirculating hatchery. But there are costs of the capitalization, that is, in terms of the global warming potential of the elements that go into building and running that facility. When an analysis of those costs is done for British Columbia, it turns out that the global warming potential on a life cycle basis of the recirculating aquaculture, if everything goes correctly with the recirculating aquaculture, is similar to but a little worse than the net-pen operations. It doesn't take very much to go wrong in running a recirculating aquaculture facility and thereby make it progressively more costly from a life-cycle analysis perspective, and thus for it have greater global warming potential. That would be the kind of blend of electricity that we would use, if we in British Columbia moved away from hydroelectric and included more purchased power from the United States, for example, or other locations. Then the global warming potential of that energy goes up and the life-cycle analysis changes.

The point I'm trying to make here is that there are the local evaluations, but when you take them all together and you compare them with a life-cycle analysis perspective, net pens are still better—and depending on the particular kind of technology that's used for closed-containment, they can be significantly better.

Rosane Doré Lefebvre NDP Alfred-Pellan, QC

Okay. Thank you.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Your time has expired.

Thank you.

Mr. Sopuck.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

Thank you.

By definition, net-pen open-ocean aquaculture has to be in rural areas, right? So those by definition produce rural jobs primarily. Closed containment aquaculture is much freer to locate where it would be best located, and I would suspect that's closer to markets. Is it fair to say that mandated closed containment aquaculture would have disproportionately serious impacts on many rural communities?

4:40 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Aquaculture Industry Alliance

Ruth Salmon

Absolutely. If that were mandated, the industry, realistically, might not even be able to survive. The industry would look at operations elsewhere if that were mandated. It could have a dramatic effect.

So yes, if we moved to closed containment, it would be in different areas, close to markets and certainly not in the rural coastal communities that we have now. But we also might not have an industry, because it would be physically impossible to move 40,000 metric tonnes of marine harvest production on land.

You're absolutely right.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

Right. But again, we're asked to speculate. People talk about technology changing and so on. As decision-makers, we have to look to the future and look at the implications involved.

4:40 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Aquaculture Industry Alliance

Ruth Salmon

It would have a pretty dramatic impact on employment.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

So there would be a disproportionate rural impact.

Again, if closed containment were mandated, costs would most definitely go up, which is what think you were saying, we would end up with higher prices in our supermarkets. But our competitors wouldn't be in the same regulatory boat and our market would therefore be flooded with inexpensive net-pen salmon from around the world, right? So our closed containment aquaculture industry would suffer greatly, or essentially be destroyed. Is that fair to say?

4:40 p.m.

Director, Sustainability, Marine Harvest Canada

Clare Backman

As things stand today, if the Canadian industry were mandated to go 100% into this higher-cost form of production of closed containment, then your analysis would be correct. We would have some market, but nothing like what we have now.

The markets that are looking for commodity pricing would choose those offshore products.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

And I guess because of free trade agreements we couldn't close our market to those imports?

4:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Aquaculture Industry Alliance

Ruth Salmon

That's right.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

I have another question. I am an avid Atlantic salmon fly fisherman. I love to fish the wild salmon. Will we ever see the day when commercial fishing of wild salmon will cease to exist worldwide because of expanding production of farmed Atlantic salmon, and the fish will instead be reserved for subsistence use and angling purposes? I guess the analogy is that we don't commercially harvest moose and deer. We have enough domestic beef, and so those species are reserved for other things.

Will we see the day when wild Atlantic salmon commercial fishing will be a thing of the past?

4:45 p.m.

Director, Sustainability, Marine Harvest Canada

Clare Backman

Wild Atlantic salmon commercial fishing doesn't happen in British Columbia, so I can't add too much on that.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

I know, but I'm talking about the east coast, obviously. I ask because the fish has such value as an angling species worldwide. Indeed, the Atlantic Salmon Federation had just put out a major report on the value of wild salmon.

Worldwide will see commercial Atlantic salmon fishing become a thing of the past because of increased aquacultural production?

4:45 p.m.

President, Canadian Aquaculture Systems Inc.

Daniel Stechey

Dating back to my days at DFO when I was participating at NASCO, the North Atlantic Salmon Conservation Organization, it was only Ireland, as I recall, that had a bit of a wild salmon fishery left for Atlantic salmon. Unless I'm mistaken, I think that fishery has been shut down completely.

Do you know of any commercial fisheries for wild Atlantic salmon?

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

I know that Greenland is trying to reopen theirs. Again, there's a big fight there. The Atlantic Salmon Federation is working very hard there.

To me, the wild salmon is too valuable to commercially harvest. We have the fallback position of all the Atlantic salmon that you folks produce.

4:45 p.m.

President, Canadian Aquaculture Systems Inc.

Daniel Stechey

Just to come back to the economics and mathematics of this, if I may, the value of that fish in the sport fishery is far greater than it is in the commercial fishery.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

Right.

In terms of closed containment aquaculture, you talked about coho as a possible niche market species. What other species could be raised in closed containment? I'm from Manitoba, and I'm interested in aquaculture. Ms. Salmon and I had discussions about inland closed containment aquaculture, or perhaps freshwater lake aquaculture. What are some of the other species?

4:45 p.m.

President, Canadian Aquaculture Systems Inc.

Daniel Stechey

The next time you're back in your home province, you should go to Warren, Manitoba, and visit the model farm there for trout. It's a closed containment facility.

At the end of the day, I have a lot of clients who say, “I want to grow this species” or “I want to grow that species”. I say something along the lines of what I said earlier about technology: There are 47,000 species of fish on this planet and, honestly, in this day and age, we can grow any one of them you want. But at the end of the day, if you want to grow the fish and make money, the list of species gets really short really fast.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Mr. MacAulay.

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

I am thankful that the species becomes scarce when that happens, because we don't want it all to go to that....

Mrs. Salmon, you said that $2.2 billion and 4,500 people were involved in the aquaculture industry. Does that involve all aquaculture, including the blue mussel industry in my province?

4:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Aquaculture Industry Alliance

Ruth Salmon

It does. That's total aquaculture in Canada.

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

On this committee, over the last few years, there has been a topic called sea lice. Some people blamed the open-net farms and their overpopulation for the sea lice. In fact, when the downturn in the return of the salmon took place, it was a big issue here. Would you like to comment on that and how you handled it?

4:45 p.m.

Director, Sustainability, Marine Harvest Canada

Clare Backman

You're asking about the actions that the net-pen aquaculture industry have taken to address the concerns about sea lice. Sea lice on farm fish are quite different on the east coast than the west coast. That has been explained to the committee in the past. On the west coast, the sea lice are a different species and far less damaging to the fish. On the east coast, it's a different situation. In both cases, the industry's response has been to adhere to maximum thresholds of allowable sea lice to reduce their ability to create more sea lice on the wild fish that are around the cages. That's done through a program of monitoring and taking steps when there are sea lice approaching or exceeding the maximum threshold. We take steps to control their numbers.