Fisheries Committee on Nov. 17th, 2011

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thank you.

I have another point for clarification.

David, I heard you talk about where the land would need to be and I heard you say that it doesn't need to be on the coast. When I was with the committee and travelling to look at closed containment, one of the concerns was where to find flat enough and affordable land, with fresh water, land that is owned by the private sector or is accessible.

What I was hearing is that this could be anywhere in a rural community, that it doesn't have to be on the coast in British Columbia. Is that correct?

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Fin Donnelly]

Just a short response, please, David.

[David Lane]

Yes, it opens up new opportunities.

A number of developers on the coast want to use saline water; they want a salt component. There are others who want to do it with just fresh water, and that can be done in any part of the province or any part of Canada.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Fin Donnelly]

Thank you very much.

That concludes our first round. We're now going to shift to a second round of shorter questions. We have five minutes.

We'll begin with Ms. Doré Lefebvre.

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

This is more a question for Mr. Lane, but I would like to hear Dr. Wright's opinion as well, if possible.

Concerning open-net production, there are many potential impacts, particularly on the environment. There is a lot of concern. For example, there is an added risk of disease for wild salmon and there is the presence of pollutants like pesticides, antibiotics and food preservatives.

Last Tuesday, we heard representatives of the aquaculture industry, namely Cooke Aquaculture, which is presently facing 11 charges concerning the use, in the Bay of Fundy, of a pesticide which is illegal in Canada. In this case, the pesticide was used to prevent sea lice. It was devastating. Evidence proved that this pesticide had a negative impact on the nervous system of lobsters, causing paralysis and even death of thousands of lobsters.

With open-net facilities, is it possible to use more biological tools to prevent this kind of disease? Is it possible to do without those pesticides which destroy other forms of life in the ocean?

[David Lane]

There are two comments I would have on that.

First of all, this is why we believe that moving to closed containment is a real solution, because it eliminates the problem of disease and sea lice.

Second, as far as open-net pens are concerned, when they're using various pesticides in British Columbia, it's a product called Slice. Pesticides are known throughout the agricultural community to eventually become ineffective through resistance from the disease or pests and, in all cases, with New Brunswick being the prime example at the moment, other chemicals have to be used: more toxic chemicals have to be used and unproven chemicals have to used.

Again, we say that the best thing possible is to get these out of the ocean, to not have fish in concentrated circumstances in the ocean, but to instead keep them on land where these are not problems.

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Dr. Wright, do you have a comment?

[Dr. Andrew Wright]

I'll make a very quick one and say that when you put a million animals in a very tight space, with no biosecurity in the ocean, you will get rapid development of bugs, pathogens, disease, and whatever. By going to closed containment, we are afforded an additional benefit. We treat all our water on an hourly basis as it recirculates, with ozone and UV, so any parasite that would perhaps come in by accident—and you have to be prepared for that to happen—is immediately killed and not allowed to propagate.

Furthermore, because of the environment being so contained, salt—and you'll hear this when you visit the Freshwater Institute—can be readily utilized as a very good therapeutant, and salt is as natural as it comes.

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

In your opinion, then, it is impossible to use biological tools to prevent that kind of disease in open-net facilities, so one has to use pesticides, antibiotics, those type of things?

[David Lane]

That has been the case. It is certainly a major disaster as far as disease is concerned in Chile. It crippled that industry for a number of years.

In terms of the sea lice issue on the east coast of Canada, in every jurisdiction where fish are in the ocean, there have been these kinds of problems.

It actually is the stated purpose of those who are developing closed containment. Those who want to farm that way see this as a way to get away from those problems.

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

In your opinion, this kind of problem does not and cannot happen in a recirculating aquaculture system.

[David Lane]

No, they would be using disease-free eggs or smolts, depending on what stage was being introduced. There is no ability for disease or parasites to come onto the site.

As Andy said, it's a biosecure site, so it's a completely different circumstance, and the operators that we know have been completely disease-free.

[Dr. Andrew Wright]

I would like to clarify that. I'm an engineer and a mathematician. I'm not a biologist.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Fin Donnelly]

Very briefly.

[Dr. Andrew Wright]

What I would like you to think about is this: in the ocean, every farm is inextricably connected by the water to every other farm, so when there is a disease outbreak it has the potential to run through the entire industry.

But if I have 100 farms that are absolutely isolated from each other, I could get a disease at one farm, and it is limited to that farm; therefore, the economic security of the country is far higher.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Fin Donnelly]

Thank you.

Mr. Leef.

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lane and Mr. Wright, for your information so far.

Like Mr. Kamp said, we are very interested in seeing how this progresses and translates from theory and some of the assumptions into practical application and the hard results. I see some impressive technology and the fact that you're able to operate with no borrowing costs, and there may be some differences between Atlantic Canada and Pacific Canada in land access. Those would be interesting variables to look at when we try to link to the secondary opportunities you noted. I think that's a fantastic way to approach this.

It does link into one of my questions. Would you characterize the open-net farming right now as a lucrative business? That's a question for whoever is more comfortable answering.

[Dr. Andrew Wright]

Commodity pricing has made that not a lucrative business. In British Columbia, the production unit of Marine Harvest this year is currently barely breaking a profit, if not taking a loss. That operating margin is so skinny because of production issues around kudoa and disease, and also, a broad glut of fish, particularly as Chile comes back online, has pushed the current price to below $3 a pound at the Seattle market.

I believe closed containment is a way to escape that conundrum, because kudoa is a massive issue on this coast. For those who don't know, it's a parasite you can't escape. It's in the ocean and it causes the flesh to go mushy and soft very quickly post-harvest or post-cull.

The other issue we need to explore is the true nature of how these companies are orchestrated, because it is $20 a kilo in the marketplace and $6 a kilo at the farm gate, yet these companies globally are making a profit. Like all multinationals, they're usually organized to secure their largest profit margin in the lowest tax jurisdiction, and that then causes us to reflect on how much value we are truly getting for leasing our environment to these companies. That is an important issue we need to look through carefully: the whole value chain and where profits are actually retained.

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

Thank you.

Earlier in testimony, you mentioned the waste stream ending up on the ocean floor. At the last committee meeting we had, we heard that the lobster fishery in Atlantic Canada actually surrounds the net pens and is doing quite well.

Obviously B.C. has an ocean floor fishery, so are you seeing any change in that around these areas? Is there already a direct impact from that waste stream that you know of?

[David Lane]

I'll just speak in regard to the commercial prawn fishermen with whom we have contact. The extra waste on the floor can give more prawn abundance, but whenever there is an application of this pesticide called Slice, they're reporting that the prawns are not there at all. There are studies being done to see what the actual implications of these pesticides are on our prawns and crabs, but it is of great concern to commercial fishermen whether those chemicals are going to reduce their catches near farms.

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

So minus the chemicals, they're actually somewhat of a benefit from that waste stream in terms of prawn enhancement. That's interesting.

Now, going way back--and this is maybe just getting muddied in details--I was interested when you were talking about the sea lion kills. I certainly know this isn't a palatable justification for it, but just out of curiosity I'm wondering if there is any benefit to the Pacific wild salmon from the predators being shot.

[David Lane]

The issue there would simply be how many sea lions and seals we're talking about. There is a large population of sea lions and seals in British Columbia and they do eat a lot of wild salmon. The public in British Columbia has quite an aversion to marine mammals being shot. When news came out as to the degree of marine mammal kills earlier this year, it got quite major headlines. I don't think the public sentiment would agree with that level of destruction of marine mammals at all.

[Dr. Andrew Wright]

I would like to ask the committee to also take into account the work of Professor Andrew Trites at UBC, who has researched the diet of sea lions in particular. They also prey extensively on the prey of salmon. So there's a very fine ecosystem balance there: if you take the top predator away, then the predators that prey on the salmon, in terms of smaller fish that prey on salmon fry, will then explode. He is the expert on this matter. I would counsel you to talk to him.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Fin Donnelly]

Thank you.

Monsieur Tremblay.

[Jonathan Tremblay, NDP, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have some questions about GHG. I see that Dr. Wright's analysis leads to findings which are different from Dr. Tyedmers's—I'm not sure I pronounce his name properly—who did a life-cycle analysis of salmon aquaculture systems.

Can you comment on this difference? Are there specific variables, measurements or assumptions in Dr. Tyedmers' model that may be different or unjustified? Thank you.