Fisheries Committee on Dec. 1st, 2011

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Walling, Mr. Walker, and Dr. McKenzie, for appearing.

Let me just ask a quick question, Mary Ellen, if I could.

You said that you were a participant in the Cohen commission, and still are, I guess. All participants had to sign I think what was called an undertaking of confidentiality. What was that for, how did it relate to the flow of documents, and how did that come into play or not come into play in the recent claims regarding ISA?

[Mary Ellen Walling]

It's a bit of a sore point for me, I must say. As a participant in the hearings, you're granted standing. With that standing come some obligations and requirements. One of them is.... Because of the volume of information that's being put into this massive database, as the different hearings are scheduled, the documents are then extracted by the council and by the participants' council and by Cohen and commission staff. Then they're entered into evidence or not entered into evidence.

So it's a way to collect a lot of data and then use it in a proper and respectful way. We're all required to sign an undertaking. So for the Salmon Farmers Association, anyone who has looked at any of that information signs an undertaking. The undertaking says you will not release the information; you will not describe the information to anyone who isn't part of that process until it becomes evidence in the proper flow of time.

We have seen repeated breaches of the undertaking into the media for the entire time the Cohen commission has been going on. The most recent breach is this release of information on ISA. I think it broke in a Seattle newspaper.

It's extremely frustrating both for me and my colleagues in the business. We're starting to get a lot of questions from the marketplace. We're not able to discuss...even now that it's in the media. I asked my lawyer to tell me exactly what I should describe to you should this question come up. He said that any communication of information subject to the undertaking would be a breach, and a document leaked to the media does not release me from the undertaking. I'm having to answer questions from our customers without talking about what I can be talking about.

For the question of ISA, though, I will say that our farms have been tested for ISA over the past five, six years. Over 5,000 fish at this juncture have now been tested. We're showing no signs of this disease. We would be the canary in the coal mine here, because our fish, Atlantic salmon, are highly susceptible to ISA, whereas Pacific salmon are not.

So it's a big concern for us, and we hope this breach of undertaking doesn't continue. I don't have a lot of confidence about that at this point.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Thank you very much. That's interesting.

Mr. Walker, I've been to Middle Bay two or three times now and follow with interest the development of that. I'm not sure you told us about why you chose chinook salmon in this case rather than Atlantic or coho.

[Robert Walker]

Actually, we were chinook salmon farmers before, when we were in net cages. We had a lot of experience with them. We liked the fish and had lots of experience with it.

When we were at the Cedar facility, we grew Atlantics, coho, and chinook, and then opted for chinook salmon, both because we knew it and because our markets asked for it. We have discovered the retail markets really want Pacific indigenous species, so we're happy to oblige.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Will you get a premium for that chinook salmon that you wouldn't get with Atlantic salmon?

[Robert Walker]

Likely, yes. Premiums are ethereal. They don't last. We haven't done any business modelling based on premiums; we've just modelled on current commodity rates.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

You're on the grid in Middle Bay. If there wasn't any place to plug in and you were out on some bay, how would you be able to operate? Could you do it in a cost-effective way?

[Robert Walker]

Cost effectively, we've actually looked at diesel generation. So from a cost perspective, it's certainly doable, but you're dealing with a pretty major carbon footprint if you choose to go that way. That's the sort of decision that would be made by an individual farmer. Certainly from a cost perspective, diesel generation does work.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Dr. McKenzie, I want to thank you for the information you gave us, and particularly for the comments you made about animal welfare issues, and so on.

You said there is documentation or studies to show optimal densities for fish health and welfare, and 17 to 22 kilograms per cubic metre, I think, was the number you used. Can you provide us with some studies or documentation, something we can understand, that gives us a bit more information on that?

[Dr. Peter McKenzie]

There are no specific studies that I can provide now off the top of my head, but certainly I would refer you to some of the standards I mentioned. The Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and Compassion in World Farming both have standards that deal with fish farming. They reference a number of projects and where they've come to those numbers of 17 to 22. That's what they consider their maximum. They also deal with a large number of other welfare parameters that can be measured.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Mr. Walker, what do you think about that?

I'm assuming you're going to be above 17 to 22 kilos per cubic metre. What's your opinion on this?

[Robert Walker]

We modelled at a peak density of about 35 kilos per cubic metre. It's our experience that the fish have done very well.

Peter referred to cortisol earlier. We did some comparable stress tests from the facility at Cedar where we were growing them at 42 kilos per cubic metre and compared that to net cage farms. The scientist doing the work was not able to find any significant difference in cortisol levels between the fish in the Cedar facility and the net cages he was looking at. That's a piece of interest.

I also think that fish find their own densities. We observed the fish in our tanks moving both horizontally and vertically through the water column. They seemed to find their comfort zones. I believe that as long as we're providing the right amount of refreshed water and oxygen systems, they don't experience that much stress.

We've had a lot of comments on the fish condition in our system. They're a really robust fish. They look very healthy and behave very healthily. So far, I don't think that's an issue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you very much.

Mr. MacAulay.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I want to welcome Ms. Walling, Mr. Walker, and Dr. McKenzie.

Ms. Walling, you're funding your own participation in the Cohen commission. Is that to make sure that the proper story is related to the commission? Why are you involved like that? You're one of two groups that is paying to participate in this commission. Is that correct?

[Mary Ellen Walling]

Yes. We determined that we needed to be participants in it because we were named in the terms of reference as a possible cause.

We did not apply to the Canadian government for funding support to participate, but most of the other groups, except for ourselves and Rio Tinto, did. Their participation and legal fees are being paid by us, by Canadians.

We felt it was important for us to participate. We did not want the Canadian government and Canadians to pay our legal bills; this was a responsibility we had to undertake, but it's been very expensive.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

When you have problems, of course, the gag order is not so helpful either.

[Mary Ellen Walling]

It's not helpful.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Dr. McKenzie, on the fish farms with the open net, when the fish are treated, we've heard a lot of different testimony around this table. Do you believe there's a problem when Slice or other treatments are used for fish in that it affects anything beyond the net, or do you think there's no problem at all in that area? Also, do you believe it affects what is beneath the nets?

We had a doctor here, I think in the last meeting, who indicated that the land was practically dead underneath the open-net concept. I'd like you to comment on that and whether you feel it is or isn't a problem.

[Dr. Peter McKenzie]

With regard to drugs, antibiotics, and/or sea lice, I will group them for this discussion into one: sea lice treatments. We use a number of strategies in order to minimize release of drugs into the environment. We use feeding strategies if and when we have to medicate, which as Mary Ellen has indicated is very rare. We focus on prevention so that we minimize the number of treatments, and in most cases the number of treatments on a farm in an entire production cycle is very small; maybe one or two is very common. That will occur over a five- to seven-day period. So this is a very small portion of the feed production throughout the entire production cycle of that farm.

During those production cycles, we also use as very low levels of drugs as we can that are effective. We also manipulate feed rates in order to minimize...so that there is no feed left that's going out into the system unconsumed. We focus very much on those. In addition to that, we've participated on projects over the years where we've looked at and tried to identify drugs in the environment, in the benthic, post treatments. We've had systems where we've had animals in sentinel cages beneath the system and looked for and tested for drug residues in those sentinel species, whether they be prawns or shellfish in the areas. We've never had a problem with that. When we've done those projects, the results have always been very positive as far as no detection of drug.

That gives me great comfort as a veterinarian that what I'm doing is not having an impact in that way. I believe the doctor you referred to, maybe Dr. Ikonomou, has done some research on Slice. We have been participating in that research project where he's been looking at trying to detect levels of Slice or sea lice treatment in spot prawns in and around farms. The detection limit he's getting is so sensitive that he feels he's been able to detect it at times during a treatment.

We're participating in activities such as that so that we continue to understand whether there is any impact.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much.

Therefore, in any studies you've been involved in, it has not affected the shellfish in the area around the open-net concept. Is that correct?

[Dr. Peter McKenzie]

That's correct.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Walker, I suspect you're not in this for the good of your health. I think you want to make money.

I'd just like you to comment on what's taken place and how you feel about this. You've got a closed containment in the water. You take in the sea water. What difference is it to the closed containment that we've been hearing about here? This water is filtered as it comes in. Am I correct? All the sediment is taken out when it's released. Is that right?

[Robert Walker]

Almost. The latter part is correct.

We're actually pumping sea water from depth unfiltered, bringing it into our system. We exchange it with the tank about once an hour and then we collect the solid waste from it. We move the solid waste to land and then the rest of the water goes back into the ocean. It's a fairly simple system. It doesn't involve high technology, like a biofilter or ozonation and so on. That's why our energy costs are so low as well. We don't need to be using those systems.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much.

Also I'd like you to comment on.... Well, you haven't treated and you do not have to treat for sea lice in the closed containment that you have. Is that correct? You have no problem.

[Robert Walker]

That's correct. We haven't had any experience with sea lice at all. We're actually growing a Pacific salmon species, chinook salmon, that does not typically have an issue with sea lice infestation. We did have experience with Atlantic salmon in the Cedar facility, which was also a flow-through, although on land, and we had zero incidence of sea lice there.

I think we have quite a bit of work to do in that regard. I referenced in my comments that we actually have the ability to draw water from depth. Sea lice tend to thrive in the sort of upper trophic regions, near the surface, so if we're able to draw fresh water from roughly 15 or 20 metres below, then we avoid most of the sea lice populations. So transference and infection is really limited. We practice limitation, I guess, rather than treatment.