Fisheries Committee on Dec. 1st, 2011

[Dr. Peter Tyedmers]

It's a really great question, because something that surprised me when we first did this work was realizing how important the setting of a technology can be given exactly what you've identified.

Are there some regions with clear advantages? If the issues we're concerned about are those associated with fossil fuel combustion—greenhouse gas emissions, acid rain-generating emissions, or ozone-depleting emissions—then absolutely, you're better off siting these sorts of land-based systems in places like British Columbia, Quebec, and even Manitoba, where you have very high levels of non-fossil fuel-derived electricity to help power the technologies to keep animals alive.

If you're concerned that your environmental impact is, however, on wild salmon in rivers, then you may want to avoid hydroelectric generating. Hydroelectricity also comes at costs. Geography matters. Setting matters, absolutely, but we shouldn't ever lose sight that we're probably always making trade-offs when we choose a setting where electricity is derived from different primary resources.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

In your thinking, have you taken into account the value of land? We know that moving this footprint onto land would take several hundred acres. From your analysis, would anything suggest that would be a problem? Do we have siting possibilities, and what would the economic value of that land be?

[Dr. Peter Tyedmers]

I haven't done that sort of study. I haven't been asked to look at either the siting challenges, and all of the location constraints that would have to go into it, or the economics of actually trying to purchase that land. Something I have talked about, however, with one of my PhD students and actually co-author, Nathan Ayer—we were talking about this earlier today—is that there is also a permanence in the land change. I think that is worth thinking about when you're implementing a land-based recirculating aquaculture system.

We end up digging holes and pouring a lot of concrete. That technology, we hope, is going to remain in place for 20 or 25 years, and if we choose to go down this path, it's going to be kicking out salmon at low inputs and low cost with low impacts. I think that has yet to be demonstrated, but at the end of that process you're going to have a site with a lot of concrete and steel. It's going to have been transformed. It's going to be a one-way transformation of hundreds of hectares or hundreds of acres, depending on how large a system you want to move to. I don't know if anyone's ever been concerned about that.

It's not addressing the issue of upfront cost, but it does represent a relatively irreversible change in that land use from forested land, agricultural land, or whatever it was to begin with. Maybe it was brownfields. Maybe it was previously industrialized and we're just repurposing it, but it does potentially represent a one-way transformation of land use.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you.

When you talked about some of the comparative analysis on char, I think you indicated that the char could take the 60 to 70 kilograms per cubic metre density, but that Atlantic salmon don't react so well to those kinds of densities. We just heard testimony from our last witness that would suggest that maybe 22 kilograms per cubic metre would be more than sufficient in a closed containment system.

Have you done any looking? Certainly the Freshwater Institute in Virginia has been doing some work and apparently has started to generate some data. Has there been any thought or have you done any work to update from a char to an Atlantic salmon comparison for the numbers?

[Dr. Peter Tyedmers]

All of my work is really derived from other people's data. Those folks who are in the field—either at the Freshwater Institute or in other settings—actually have the experience, as to how many fish you can keep alive in a cubic metre of water and how to actually grow them in healthy conditions. Unfortunately, I don't have any direct knowledge of that. Ultimately, my impression is that we can push animals pretty hard into higher densities. It just raises the stakes, in terms of the vulnerability of systems to power outages and to failures of systems.

I don't know how comfortable different strains of Atlantic salmon might be at very high densities, but basic biological principles would suggest that at higher densities your system is going to be more vulnerable to minor interruptions. If the electricity goes off and your backup generator doesn't kick on, and you've got 70 kilos of biomass in the water as opposed to 20 kilos of biomass, you're going to have a problem faster.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Okay. I'll just ask a last question really quickly, Chair.

Have you received any data or talked to any folks at the Freshwater Institute with respect to their operation down there, as to how that might affect benchmarks or help you do any benchmarking to update your study?

[Dr. Peter Tyedmers]

I haven't yet. I'm working with a student right now, looking at doing some more aquaculture technology studies. We're actually focused, in the short term, on potentially looking at AgriMarine's marine-based solid-wall system—actually, I was speaking with the folks at AgriMarine yesterday—and I haven't had the occasion yet to reconsider a land-based recirculating technology. Of course I'd love to. It always depends on certain questions: What's the purpose? Where's the opportunity? Are there resources to bring to bear? Are there good students who I can let loose on the project?

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you very much.

Mr. MacAulay.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

And welcome, Professor.

In your studies, do you find that the open net salmon farms are in the wrong place? Is that one of the problems, and should they be shifted?

Do you think more regulations need to be imposed by DFO on the open-net concept?

I'll leave you with that for now.

[Dr. Peter Tyedmers]

I apologize. It's really hard for me to provide any definitive answer to that, because I think there is so much heterogeneity in every site. Almost anybody could probably go and identify some poorly sited net pen sites. I'm sure the companies that manage and run these sites have sites they'd just as soon not be using—I could be wrong on that. It wouldn't surprise me that anybody could probably point to a site or two now.

That's not my area of research: looking at the specific qualities of sites, in terms of the demands we're placing on them with regard to culturing salmon. So, unfortunately, I don't have a good, definitive answer for you, except in generalities to say I'm sure there are sites that probably would be better off not having a salmon farm on them.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I appreciate that, and apologize for not having....

On eco-certification, you talk about density in the closed containment, or even in the open-net concept. Do you see eco-certification being involved down the road in the sale of these fish? In my opinion, eco-certification is going to impose more restrictions on what takes place in the fishing industry than probably the Government of Canada will impose, because if they wish to sell the product, it would have to be certified.

Also, do you believe that fish farming should be under the authority of DFO or Agriculture Canada?

[Dr. Peter Tyedmers]

Wow. Those are two very different questions.

On eco-certification.... I'm sorry, was your question whether I would expect closed containment farmed salmon to be eco-certified, and is that a good thing?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Yes. Are there enough rules in the open-net concept in order to make...? Are there rules on density? Do you expect there will be rules on density? Do you think this will have an effect on the sale of the fish? If countries around the world, when eco-certification—of course, you know what eco-certification is. If they decide it's not going to be certified, then you do not sell the product. That's where I'm going. Do you see that playing a role?

[Dr. Peter Tyedmers]

Absolutely, it does already. AgriMarine, which used to operate the land-based tank farm at Cedar before they moved away from the technology because it was just too expensive to run, were marketing a farmed salmon as “eco” salmon in local stores.

Right now there are land-based farmed salmon—I think coho—coming out of a farm site in Washington State that are a “best choice” in sort of the SeaChoice and the Monterey Bay Aquarium Seafood Watch program.

Eco-certification is here. It's not going to go away. Is it a good thing? I think it is, absolutely. If people want to choose products that are differentiated from other products that they see as problematic, I think people should have that opportunity to vote with their wallets and buy something. If it costs more and they're happy to pay more, they should be able to do that.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

People will pay more for organic products, so they'll pay more for eco-certified fish.

[Dr. Peter Tyedmers]

Some people will but not everyone. But, absolutely, if there's a market for it and people are willing to invest the serious time and energy into developing these standards and actually applying these standards, and then if farms actually make the change to pursue those opportunities, I think all of that is a good thing. Of course, it's always going to evolve.

On your second question, which was related to—

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

It was on who should be in charge, whether DFO or—

[Dr. Peter Tyedmers]

Again, that's deep water. I would have to say it's really up to the federal government to determine who is best placed to execute its mandate with respect to the protection of aquatic ecosystems, fisheries, and fish.

Clearly DFO has been challenged throughout its history as an organization. Within the wild-capture fishery there are almost dual mandates to protect wild fish and ecosystems and at the same time fisheries, the things that humans derive. They've struggled with this dual mandate for a long time.

I don't see why we need to take it away from them now on the aquaculture front. But who am I to say?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Professor Tyedmers, I want to take this opportunity to thank you on behalf of the committee for taking the time today to meet with us and to answer our questions and provide us with a lot of information. It's greatly appreciated.

Committee members, we will move into committee business at this point in time. I believe we have a couple of items we want to discuss. I believe you all have a copy of the adjusted budget based on our conversation the other day.

Mr. Donnelly.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Chair, I just want to make a general comment about the witnesses we just had, in terms of the cluster of presentations.

We had three witnesses in the first hour and one witness in the second. I was hoping for something like two and two. I'm sure there was a rationale for the clumping, but it was difficult to ask questions. We had three very good presentations. I'm not taking away from any of the presentations, but perhaps two and two, or something like that in the future, rather than three and one would allow a little more time to ask questions of the witnesses. Maybe in the future there could be that consideration.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

It's noted.

Turning back to the budget, you all have a copy of the budget in front of you. It's been adjusted as per the conversation we had at our previous meeting.

Are there any questions, comments, or concerns with that?

Mr. Allen.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

I have just a quick question, Chair.

Maybe the clerk could answer this. The price listed for the full-fare economy is $3,000 per person return? That seems like a lot.

If we're trying to make sure we get enough buffer, that seems like a lot of buffer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Let me see if I have this right.