Fisheries Committee on Dec. 6th, 2011

[Blendle Scott]

We follow the advice of our science partner, and they indicate to us that there is concern with open pen farmed salmon. So we have followed that advice, and we continue to find alternate sources for our consumers.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

I didn't ask about the general effects. I wanted specific evidence related to wild salmon stocks.

Ms. Roebuck, your very general answer did not address my question.

I'd like to point out that in B.C., net pen aquaculture has been going since 1985, and in 2010 the Fraser River sockeye salmon returns were 30 million, the best returns since 1913. In the report that I have in front of me here, river by river, salmon stocks are either above expectations or where they're supposed to be, and 2011 was considered the best recreational salmon fishery on the west coast.

I would recommend, to follow up on my colleague Mr. Kamp's point, that general comments about general environmental degradation without evidence to back it up is simply not helpful.

In terms of the effect of closed containment aquaculture on rural coastal communities, which currently depend on net pen aquaculture, John Holder, who some of you have heard of, made the point to us very clearly that closed containment aquaculture facilities can be moved anywhere close to markets, whereas coastal net pen aquaculture has to be close to, obviously, coastal rural communities.

Do you have any concern that rural jobs will be lost if and when your wish comes true and net pen aquaculture is banned, and then subsequently closed containment aquaculture moves inland towards markets, where land is cheaper and electricity costs are cheaper?

[Kelly Roebuck]

First I would like to just touch on the impacts on wild salmon and—

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

I don't have that much time, but go ahead.

[Kelly Roebuck]

Okay. You referred to the good runs for the Fraser River in the last couple of years, but really we can't just look at one particular stock and one particular aspect. As we know, the IUCN has some populations that are on their red list, so there are a number of threatened and endangered species. Just highlighting the fact that the last couple of years have been good for the Fraser River doesn't show the full picture.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Just to interject, the report in front of me talks about the Skeena, Barkley Sound, and Smith's Inlet as well. So it's not just the Fraser.

Anyway, continue.

[Kelly Roebuck]

Okay. But still, that is just a snapshot of different stocks. We have to look at the big picture. There are also some endangered and threatened stocks there.

As for jobs, a report independently commissioned by the Province of B.C. quoted the net pen industry as having 2,945 direct jobs.

When it comes to closed containment, those would equate to new jobs, whether in rural areas or in coastal communities. For example, the AgriMarine project, as well as the 'Namgis project, is still on Vancouver Island, so that would keep those coastal communities intact in terms of those jobs.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

I'm very well aware of that, and I simply do not agree with that. John Holder and his company have developed inland aquaculture, closed containment coho salmon aquaculture facilities, in Montana right now. And as I said, there are plenty of places outside the coastal area where land is much cheaper, as is hydro.

In terms of sustainability of closed containment, it was pointed out to us that land-based closed containment aquaculture involves fairly large cement facilities, so once a facility like that is built, that land use is irrevocably changed to an artificial environment, whereas for net pen aquaculture, the bottom may be affected for a few years, but once the net pen is removed, the bottom recovers. So how do you look at the permanent land use change because of inland closed containment and the moving around of net pen aquaculture and the subsequent recovery of the ocean floor?

[Kelly Roebuck]

I'd say there's a lot of independent science that would dispute that there is necessarily 100% recovery when it comes to the impacts on the sea floor.

Secondly, when it comes to...you said Montana, for example. There are also in the lower mainland, in the Fraser Valley, a number of closed containment projects that are starting to come up and be ready as well. So that's still providing a waterway in coastal—

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

I don't doubt that given the preponderance of net pen aquaculture in coastal areas right now, the initial closed containment facilities will be built close to those areas, but I will predict that if your wish comes true, there will be a migration of these facilities away from coastal areas.

Ms. Roebuck, one thing I'd like to ask you about as well is your funding source, the Moore Foundation. That is an American-based foundation, isn't it?

[Kelly Roebuck]

Yes, it is, and that's not exclusively what is funding SeaChoice.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

I understand that, but as an MP from a rural community, where many of my communities have been victimized by foreign-funded environmental groups, I take a somewhat dim view of foreign dollars trying to influence our resource management decisions. Would you share my concerns?

[Kelly Roebuck]

I would say that Canada needs to be investing in conservation efforts. Unfortunately, if that investment is lacking, then those conservation efforts could come from a variety of sources.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

One day we'll have a discussion, Ms. Roebuck, about environmental indicators, and we will see where Canada's environmental indicators are going. They're primarily going in a positive direction.

I think my time is up, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you very much, Mr. Sopuck.

Mr. MacAulay.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to welcome our guests.

This is an interesting subject.

Ms. Roebuck, do you see any place for open net salmon farming?

I'd also like you to explain the methodology behind your ranking system between the “best choice” and “avoid”. I would have to think “avoid” would not do very much to promote the product. I think Mr. Scott might be the man to answer that, but I would like you to explain the methodology behind this ranking system you have in place.

[Kelly Roebuck]

Our methodology for all aquaculture is based on five criteria: the amount of wild fish needed for feed, so the fish in, fish out ratio, for example; the risk and impact of escapes from that facility; the risk impact of disease and parasite transfer to wild fish; control of waste and pollution; and the management regime.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

So you're basically telling the committee that you see no place for open-net salmon farming; it should be closed containment or wild.

[Kelly Roebuck]

The environmental way to farm salmon is through closed containment.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Okay.

You also stated in your presentation that you did not have enough supply to meet the demand for closed containment salmon. Perhaps Mr. Scott could respond to some of this.

I'd also like to know if he has numbers on how this affects when you put a void and best choice.... I would think that in your business overall a lot of open-net salmon is sold in British Columbia. Is this ranking having a negative effect on open-net salmon farming? I understand it's much like organic versus non-organic. Do you find that more people are coming in to your store and saying they want best choice, and they do not want fish from the open-net concept? Do you find much of that, or do you find that it's shifting more to that?

[Blendle Scott]

The customers are coming in looking for salmon. Part of our program is to educate the consumer on what might be a better choice to purchase. We saw a decline in sales when we carried Atlantic salmon, but it was replaced by the sale of more wild salmon and closed containment salmon. We've never sold more salmon.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I understand, but are the supermarkets you deal with promoting this labelling? Do you find that it has an effect? Is the promotion that's taking place in your operation with SeaChoice changing the attitude of some of your customers? Are you educating your customers that they should not eat salmon from open-net farming? Am I understanding correctly? Is that what you're promoting in your business?

[Blendle Scott]

We promote the SeaChoice ranking of products, and we promote the products that we believe are better. Obviously over time it alters consumers' perception of the various products available to us.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I expect you feel that the open-net concept for salmon farming is gradually coming to an end. Is that what you expect to see?

[Blendle Scott]

I would say it is a science question. We have chosen to educate our consumers—