Fisheries Committee on Feb. 27th, 2012

[Dr. Myron Roth]

In a manner of speaking.... What I'm getting at with that point is that what often happens is a solution is identified by various groups. So what's happening with this issue is that everyone is saying we have to go to closed containment systems. I don't know if that's necessarily the best answer. It may be a component of the answer, but it could be that we end up proverbially putting all our eggs in one basket.

What I would rather see is that the industry focus on a solution to address the issues, and the industry, through innovation, will come up with a solution to address those issues.

If you should turn around and say to the industry that everyone has to go to this kind of system, and it turns out that system doesn't work or that system isn't economically viable, then you may find you've essentially painted yourself into a corner.

As an example, there was a previous report from a committee that was chaired by Robin Austin. He was a local MLA. It advocated that everyone had to go to a certain type of solid-wall system that was floating in the ocean, like these ocean-based closed containment systems. It advocated this position and just summarily dismissed RAS systems because it made the assumption that the systems were too expensive. Had we adopted that solution, it's quite likely we wouldn't be where we are today with the development of recirculating aquaculture systems.

That's an example where you come up with one idea but that idea isn't necessarily the best. If you give the industry the opportunity to explore many ideas, you'll find that solutions will come forward. That's why the mandate should be to reduce impacts to promote sustainability rather than to promote a very specific technology.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

What would be your statement on how the industry is innovating with respect to its existing technologies today? And maybe more important, is there something the federal government could be doing to encourage it to continue innovating with what it already has?

[Dr. Myron Roth]

In what context of innovation do you mean?

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

In the context of minimizing the potential environmental impact of open-net technology, for example.

[Dr. Myron Roth]

It's a matter of which issues you want to address. Obviously there are several issues, and nothing is perfect.

Right now, from a waste discharge perspective, the federal government has been following on work from the provincial government to characterize and reduce impact from waste discharge. This would be things like feed and feces flying out from net pens, and the same thing with escapes.

I think the federal government is working quite well with the industry. I can't think of any one particular item it would work on that would address a specific issue. I'd almost have to think of a specific issue.

Probably the best thing the federal government can do is establish metrics across the industry so we're actually improving things we can measure.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you.

In your statement you said we're a little more than a year into this new regulatory environment in B.C., and it seems to be working quite well. Do you foresee any problems, or have you seen problems or complications stemming from overlap or any issues with current division of regulatory responsibility?

[Dr. Myron Roth]

Well, it's been a lot of work. I even commend the federal government for achieving what they have over such a short period of time. I don't think there's too much overlap. The industry would say it was going too slowly and could go a lot quicker. I think that will happen in time as people sort out what key issues need to be addressed.

I don't necessarily see any real problems, as long as issues that cause conflict.... I look at some of the regulatory requirements. I raised one issue, for example, with section 36 of the Fisheries Act. If someone's trying to get a licence and wants their licence to give them some sort of standard to discharge to the environment, whether it's a land-based system or an ocean-based system, we have to address the issue where one act says one thing, or the act is interpreted differently by different ministries.

In the Namgis case in particular, this group would like some sort of document that tells them that they can discharge, and they're not in conflict with the Fisheries Act as long as they meet certain standards. But my understanding is they're not getting that because there are some different interpretations of that section of the Fisheries Act.

These issues have been going on for quite a while. Fisheries and Oceans is aware of them, and I believe they're developing legislation to address those issues.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

You said that land-based systems present a somewhat different situation since the Pacific aquaculture regulations under the federal Fisheries Act—and they apply to coastal—appear to capture any aquaculture facilities in B.C., with the possible exception of land-based closed containment. I just want a clarification on what you mean by the “possible exception”. Does that mean under the provincial side? I'm still assuming that DFO would be regulating even if it is land-based. Is that true?

[Dr. Myron Roth]

Yes, DFO would be regulating if it's land-based. But I have to get clarification internally on the jurisdictional authority of the Fisheries Act. Basically, if I set up a farm that's on land and has no connection to a fish-bearing water, a fishery, or any other body of water that contains fish, is that within the scope of the Fisheries Act? They're regulating land-based systems because everyone accepts that's a logical thing to do. They've made a policy where they're looking at things like the commerce of fish grown in these facilities that would appear on the market. But if you look at it legally, you have to wonder whether or not this is an appropriate use of the Fisheries Act.

We've tried to understand the Hinkson decision. As far as we can tell, it's not totally clear whether the Fisheries Act would cover a land-based facility that has no connection to a fish-bearing body of water.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Roth.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you.

Mr. Donnelly.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Roth, for your presentation and for being with us today at the committee.

I want to focus on the waste, disease, and parasite issue. You mentioned feed and feces impacting the receiving waters in the ocean. There's also the issue of parasites and disease. Certainly this committee has heard witnesses' testimony regarding the impact, for instance, of sea lice on wild salmon coming from finfish aquaculture.

I'm wondering if you can provide any comment about how you feel the west coast aquaculture industry is handling those issues of waste, disease, and parasites.

[Dr. Myron Roth]

That's a fairly big question. I'll try to keep my comments kind of short.

On the waste discharge side, right now the current requirements are part of a performance-based monitoring scheme. I don't know how familiar you are with that. I think that on the west coast we've been really quite proactive in developing that system, although that system is also used in other regions around the world. Wherever you have an activity such as aquaculture or any other man-made activity, if you have some performance measurements you can use, you can certainly manage the situation. So I think that's being done relatively well. I don't have a concern about it.

The one thing we don't know as much about is cumulative impacts. While you may be able to characterize one site, what's the impact of multiple sites?

I think the waste impacts are being managed.

On the disease side, I've worked in a lot of countries around the world, and I spent a lot of time studying sea lice before I arrived in the provincial government. Sea lice on the west coast have a very high profile, but personally I don't believe that sea lice are causing any impact.

I think we've started to hear testimony in the Cohen commission to the effect that people are starting to feel the same thing. You have lice numbers that are very low. The use of things like Slice to treat for lice is the lowest for all the salmon-farming countries in the world.

Here in B.C. the lice numbers are very low. I think if I had to characterize sea lice as a problem, I would say that if a region wanted to do the best thing possible or if you were to set a standard, you would do what they do in B.C. I've seen other regions where the lice problems have gotten out of control, and I even worked in one for many years.

On other disease fronts, it really depends on the disease in question, but I think that when the province was managing the situation there was quite an active surveillance program. I thought the farmers were really quite proactive about it. Disease incidence is very low, and any disease we've had has been from endemic pathogens already present on the west coast. So if you farm some fish in a region, they might catch something that is local, but then it's being managed.

Disease is definitely a threat, and I certainly wouldn't want to be complacent about it, but I also think that it's being risk-managed at this time.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Would you say that while the ministry was responsible for overseeing finfish aquaculture in B.C. there was no issue or there were no cases of ISAV present?

[Dr. Myron Roth]

I don't believe there were cases of ISAV present, because the virus wasn't isolated.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Okay.

In the past Parliament, this committee had testimony from a number of scientists who offered differing perspectives. They felt that the parasite issue had been a concern over the past number of years and they cited a number of studies. It's interesting to hear your perspective.

I do want to ask about the number of licences that have been issued over the past two to three years. Has there been a significant increase in the number of licences, and is the trend going up in terms of the number of licences for new finfish net pens in British Columbia?

[Dr. Myron Roth]

No.

Regarding the number of licences right now on the books, are we talking about for salmon farms or for all facilities?

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

No, it's just for salmon farms.

[Dr. Myron Roth]

For salmon farms right now there are about 120 leases on the books, but at any one time about 85 are in operation. That number has been pretty stagnant for the last several years. So any growth we have seen on the west coast has come from efficiencies in the use of the existing sites.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Can you elaborate on why there hasn't been an expansion, given that, as you say, there have been minimal to no problems? Why hasn't the industry seen growth? Is it just because of market conditions, or what would you attribute that to?

[Dr. Myron Roth]

It's very multifactorial, but I would say there's a public perception that aquaculture is damaging to the environment, and this has caused a lot of concern and has been raised by many groups. It has made it very difficult to attract investment and to move the file forward to establish new sites.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

You're saying that the public concerns and even some of the scientific concerns that have been raised are ill-founded. In other words, there's nothing to worry about.

[Dr. Myron Roth]

No, I wouldn't say it's ill-founded. That wouldn't be the choice that I would use; I would say that it has been very exaggerated and overstated.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Okay, and I would say that I think there is a concern that the public and scientists have mentioned about.... They do feel there are real concerns about the deleterious substances entering the marine ecosystem. Whether this is a real or a perceived problem, it is obviously a problem the industry has to deal with in terms of looking at expansion or looking at how it survives and thrives. I think there's an issue in terms of the marine ecosystem in using it as a receptacle for some of these wastes and some of these diseases and parasites that have been associated with aquaculture around the world, not just on the Pacific coast.

How far along was the ministry in looking at closed containment before it changed over to federal control? I would imagine that you were looking at closed containment systems or RAS for a reason.

[Dr. Myron Roth]

The ministry has actually invested into closed containment and has looked at closed containment aquaculture for quite a few years now. This was probably started—I don't have the dates in front of me, but I'm trying to think—maybe in the early nineties or before then, when money was provided by the provincial government to look at land-based facilities or to support the development of a land-based facility. The facility in Cedar had funding from the provincial government. The bag systems that were developed were largely developed through programs in collaboration with the provincial government. In fact, before the changeover we were involved with the Namgis project as well.

We've looked at several systems and we've been involved in several projects. In each case, the projects are very expensive, and the results that have come back haven't demonstrated a significant benefit, or they've failed. So it's very difficult to constantly spend a lot of money on projects unless you're seeing some sort of progress.

There were the notable projects, like the project at Cedar, which failed, and the Future SEA bags project, which had some problems. In each case, we did learn something. We learned something from the Cedar site and we learned something from the Future SEA bags.

We've been working with the Middle Bay group on the solid wall systems and we're working closely with the Namgis project. When I say we're working with them, it's part of my job to work with these people on their projects and provide technical support, but we've also provided funding in dollars in various ways.