Evidence of meeting #34 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was know.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:25 p.m.
Professor, Department of Biology, Laval University, As an Individual
You're asking specifically about the P.E.I. mussel situation?
4:25 p.m.
Professor, Department of Biology, Laval University, As an Individual
When I said there were three or four cases, I should have said there have been three or four of the bays that have been invaded on the east side.
Our current study suggests that the natural spread of the larvae is insufficient to explain the movement, bay to bay. It has probably been the movement of perhaps boats that have not been cleaned, because there is very little opportunity to clean marine boats, unlike boats that are in use in fresh water and are taken out periodically. More likely it would be the movement of aquaculture equipment. I'm not an expert in the way things move around, but it's a business and there is a lot of material being moved from place to place. Just in the processing, the harvesting, the movement, one needs equipment. To be honest, I would not blame.... Even scientists now have realized that our activities might lead to the spread of a species as well, and we take our own precautions now to sterilize our equipment and in the use of our boats.
Again, I can't overemphasize the importance of working with the people who are out there in the field, the mussel growers, emphasizing the importance to them.
When I say “sloppy”, I don't mean that the industry is sloppy. I'm just saying that in every business there are people who will take shortcuts. As I said before, there is no way you're ever going to have a 100% solution.
When I first started working with zebra mussels I proposed something to people, because they had a wonderful list of things to do to prevent the spread of zebra mussels between lakes, and I said that was all very silly. I had the perfect idea: burn every boat that leaves the water. They said, “But how could we ever do that?” I said, “Well, there have been governments in this world where, if the dictator said that every boat gets burned, it could happen”.
I don't use the example lightly. If it was a human disease that was being spread from water to water, you bet we could stop boats from being moved from water to water. We could do things if we really wanted to, but that takes the planning, the preparation, and the explanation so you do not make people angry.
You speak of biosecurity. We can talk about bioterrorism in terms of invasive species as well, and I worry about the live trade thing. If you ban live trade fish, certain communities might think they can introduce their own populations. The Chinese mitten crab, which invaded the bay area some 30 or 40 years ago—no, longer, in the 1930s—was probably introduced as a food source for people. So if you block something, they might want to introduce it themselves to start their own populations. It can be very delicate and it requires foresight and thinking ahead.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
Doctor, you indicated when you spoke that their monitoring was inadequate. But I would—
4:25 p.m.
Professor, Department of Biology, Laval University, As an Individual
I'm sorry, do you mean specifically P.E.I.?
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
No, overall. Well, I don't think you were speaking about P.E.I. at all, but anywhere.
The point I'm getting to is this. Are you telling us that these invasive species are something we have to live with? When I heard you address it, I felt you thought that there should be more done before the species arrives, rather than when it arrives in the Great Lakes, and that the monitoring process before the species comes is not as good as it could be. Is that correct? Did I hear you properly?
4:25 p.m.
Professor, Department of Biology, Laval University, As an Individual
You heard me correctly. I'd like to maybe clarify that.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
Yes, clarify it a bit, probably. It would be a good place to do it.
4:25 p.m.
Professor, Department of Biology, Laval University, As an Individual
I'll try to do it quickly.
I think that the monitoring efforts globally are inadequate, and I stand by that. I would think P.E.I. would be a model place to look for it, particularly because of the provincial government's implication in that. They do rigorous monitoring there.
Something we haven't mentioned, perhaps just out of forgetfulness, is that our research network actually is focusing on early detection and rapid responses. So these are what we have considered to be the most important things on which we need scientific information. The director of that network, Dr. Hugh MacIsaac, will be here in a couple of weeks, so I'm not going to try to describe what the network is doing. I think he will do a very good job of that.
I can say there are promising new techniques, especially molecular techniques, that will allow us to be much better at monitoring. But again, Dr. MacIsaac will explain that in a few weeks.
I think we always have to try to prevent. I think that's the first thing to do. But once it happens, we can't just give up.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
What about education of everybody who is involved? That has been presented to us here as something that really needs to be done. A lot of people do not realize that possibly if they take a species and dump it....
What do we do in order to have people understand exactly what massive harm they're doing when they do this? We have to have an education program put in place in order to tell the people involved, around the Great Lakes or in Prince Edward Island or wherever it might be, that if they flush something down the toilet, if they dump something over the wharf....
Do you believe that one of the biggest areas to fight it, or one of the biggest weapons, would be to educate society as to the great damage it's doing?
4:30 p.m.
Professor, Department of Biology, Laval University, As an Individual
I agree entirely, and I could direct you to some programs that I think are doing very good jobs of that.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
Well, I believe we're going to receive a program.
Dr. Ricciardi, from what you're telling me, I can bring the bighead carp, the northern snakehead, the Asian carp—any of these species—into this country.
4:30 p.m.
Associate Professor, McGill University, As an Individual
You can't hold them in Ontario. And I'm not sure, but I think there are other provincial.... In terms of other provinces, I'm not sure if B.C. has a regulation against them also.
But clearly there's great heterogeneity in legislation at the provincial level. There is nothing that I know of in the federal regulations that prohibit you from doing that.
4:30 p.m.
Associate Professor, McGill University, As an Individual
Of course there should be.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
It would help prevent, but then would you suggest that the regulation should be that we do not take them in alive? What—
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston
Yes. Thank you.
We will now move to our five-minute round, and we'll begin with Mr. Donnelly.
4:30 p.m.
NDP
Fin Donnelly NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to thank Dr. Ricciardi and Dr. Johnson for coming before the committee and providing their testimony to us. I have a couple of questions for both.
First of all, Dr. Ricciardi, federal departments, including DFO, are receiving cuts to staff and resources and funding. According to you, biological invasions are comparable to economic disasters—
4:30 p.m.
Associate Professor, McGill University, As an Individual
Natural disasters.
4:30 p.m.
NDP
Fin Donnelly NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC
—natural disasters—and your study estimated that the annual economic impact of biological invasions is nearly greater, in order of magnitude, than the annual global cost of natural disasters.