Fisheries Committee on Oct. 16th, 2012

[David Burden]

Yes, you are right, but we can also start by creating a program, improving it over the first five years and then forwarding our observations and recommendations to the government for subsequent years.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

With respect to the $17.5 million amount, I was wondering how much of that is set aside to create the structure. How much is reserved for studies?

From what I gather, we could also benefit from what is being done in the United States. Prevention costs less. However, approximately what percentage of funds are actually serving to create long-term infrastructure?

[David Burden]

It is not really possible to respond to your question at this point. We have only just started doing our analysis to see what percentage will go to what component. By the end of this year, we should have a program in place.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

I believe my colleague would like to ask a question.

[Philip Toone, NDP, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

It might not be completely unrealistic to expect that Asian carp will be introduced to Lake Michigan at some point. We're maybe one power outage away from the species invading Lake Michigan. What are the possibilities of containing it to Lake Michigan? Is it possible?

[Becky Cudmore]

Is it possible? Because of the nature of the work under way in the Chicago Area Waterway System, there are a lot of boots on the ground. There are miles and miles of nets out there.

It was mentioned before that we haven't been very good worldwide at eradicating species. That's because we're always on the reactive side. We haven't been actively looking for them. They've just shown up, and they've already been well established.

[Philip Toone, NDP, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Is there any funding assigned to this at this point?

[Becky Cudmore]

Is there funding assigned to what?

[Philip Toone, NDP, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Is there funding for looking at a plan B and stopping them at Lake Michigan?

[Becky Cudmore]

Yes, there's a lot of research on containment and the ability to corral species to direct them to areas where we could fish them out. We could poison a smaller area. There's a ton of research under way to have a plan B. The idea is that the game is not over and we would be able to slow or prevent the spread and subsequent consequences. Delaying that process buys us more time for further research and the ability to fish them out and move them into an area where we can eradicate them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Weston.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Mr. Mandrak, I was very intrigued by your comment that the survival strategy for these carp is to exceed the gape size of any predator. It sounds like a good strategy for a political party, as well.

Are there any predators that could be introduced that could deal with the carp at one size or another?

[Nick Mandrak]

I think we've had a very unsuccessful history of trying to introduce one organism to control another. It usually leads to unintended consequences. Even if that organism is controlled, it typically moves on to the next organism, which would usually be a native species, so I don't think that's a good idea.

They do have native predators in their native range, but they evolved with those over tens of thousands of years. If we were willing to wait tens of thousands of years in the Great Lakes, we would expect they would reach some sort of equilibrium level. As Mr. Sopuck suggested earlier, we know that invasive species go up, and they go down, and they go up. They would level off, but not in a time scale we would find acceptable, nor would we find acceptable the economic impact until that levelling off.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

The photo you've provided is a very dramatic one. For the average non-biologist, you would think that Malthusian theory would take over and they would exhaust their supply, but you've said clearly that's not the case, that they just keep expanding.

[Nick Mandrak]

The thing is they wouldn't exhaust their supply. There would be a point where there was not enough food to maintain a population at a certain level, and that's why you would have those trends that go up and down. They go down because they've run out of food. Then when the numbers lower and there's more food available, they go up again. As our modelling indicates, there's plenty of food in places like the western basin of Lake Erie, Green Bay, and other areas of the Great Lakes for them to achieve those populations.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

To keep going.

[Nick Mandrak]

That picture is one of the best forms of outreach. When the public sees this and they see this on YouTube or television, that's what really catches their attention.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Mr. Burden, you started answering a question posed by Mr. Toone regarding cutbacks. You said that there are currently more funds being allocated than there are cutbacks.

Had you completed your answer or would there be anything else you wanted to add?

[David Burden]

All I wanted to do is connect the dots on it. I had said I've seen things go up and down over my career. With regard to Asian carp and the requirements we have with the Great Lakes Water Quality Agreement, we have the resources and the capacity to deliver on those obligations and will do so.

There are other areas of the department where we've had increases. There are areas where we're having to make choices, and there are reallocations from within. When we have priority core areas, the resources are allocated to them. That's what we're doing in this case.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Mr. MacAulay brought up the question of the fines. He said that the fines only deal with the criminal element, but clearly the fines are there to discourage people from bringing in the species. Isn't that right, Ms. Cudmore?

[Becky Cudmore]

Yes, it's a way to define the fact that this is just not acceptable. We cannot be bringing these species in live. They are intended for sale. They're not intended for release into the environment, but those releases have occurred in the past. Having the fines and the prohibitions sends the message that it is unacceptable behaviour to be bringing in these species live.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Those fines came in as changes to the Fisheries Act. Which changes are we specifically talking about?

[David Burden]

The changes that came in through the budget implementation act 2012 have those provisions within.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

That was Bill C-38.

[David Burden]

Yes.