Evidence of meeting #82 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nwt.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

David Ramsay  Minister, Department of Industry, Tourism and Investment, Government of the Northwest Territories
John Colford  Director, Investment and Economic Analysis, Department of Industry, Tourism and Investment, Government of the Northwest Territories

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

I call this meeting to order.

I'd like to thank the Honourable David Ramsay for joining us today via video conference. Minister Ramsay, I have some bad news to share with you. The bells are going to start ringing here at about 20 after the hour for a vote that's imminent, so our proceedings will be interrupted.

I'm hopeful that you'll be able to stay with us, Minister Ramsay. I would propose that we you give time for your presentation at the beginning. We'll probably be interrupted by the bells and then we'll come back here, I'm guessing, at about 12:15, and we could ask a few questions then, if that would work within your schedule.

11:05 a.m.

David Ramsay Minister, Department of Industry, Tourism and Investment, Government of the Northwest Territories

Thank you. We can check my schedule. This is on the fly, so if I'm not available, we'll make sure that we have staff available to answer any questions. I may have to go, Mr. Chairman, but we'll have somebody here.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Certainly, I do understand. I really appreciate that and I apologize for the inconvenience. I'm sure you're well aware how some of these parliamentary procedures do affect other activities.

Minister Ramsay, I'll turn the floor over to you to begin. I want to welcome you and your colleagues, and I'll ask that in your opening remarks you introduce your colleagues who are here with you today. Certainly, whenever you're ready to go, we're prepared to entertain your presentation.

11:05 a.m.

Minister, Department of Industry, Tourism and Investment, Government of the Northwest Territories

David Ramsay

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I do recognize a little bit of a Saint John accent there. My accent has gone a little bit, but I'm originally from Saint John, so it's good to know that the chair is from the great city of Saint John.

Mr. Chairman, my name is David Ramsay. I'm the Minister of Industry, Tourism and Investment with the Government of the Northwest Territories. With me is Peter Vician, the deputy minister of the department. Also here is Mr. John Colford, our director of investment and economic analysis.

As Minister of Industry, Tourism and Investment, I'm responsible for supporting the commercial fishery in the Northwest Territories, which is largely centred on Great Slave Lake. This is obviously the topic of discussion with your committee today.

For background and context, I will note that the economy of the Northwest Territories is resource based. Mining and oil and gas dominate the economy and provide substantial contributions towards our gross domestic product. Today these sectors are robust, and the future is certainly very promising.

The mining and oil and gas sectors are dependent on a number of factors that here in the Northwest Territories we are unable to influence and control. World prices, a healthy national and international investment community, and access to international markets are only a few of these influences that greatly affect whether or not one or all of these sectors can flourish in our territory.

When any one of these influences experiences a downturn, the opportunities and benefits to northerners and our economy quickly erode, and in some cases disappear. Our economy has been witness to examples of this over the past number of decades.

The Northwest Territories also have a number of smaller economic sectors that are also resource based. These include the traditional economy, such as fur trapping, an emerging agriculture sector, and of course the fishery. These industries are small relative to the rest of Canada, but very important to our people and our economy here in the Northwest Territories.

They are largely homegrown industries involving renewable resources, and they engage northerners in all 33 of our communities in the economy by providing benefits in the form of employment or income and offering tremendous social benefits to the small communities. These industries also offer employment to those who, for whatever reason, can't or choose not to participate in the larger non-renewable resource sectors, and they provide stable, reliable sources of income for their families.

In summary, when all else fails and all other options disappear, these small sectors are relied upon to provide northerners with an option for employment and income.

Now let me speak specifically to the fishery on Great Slave Lake. I'll first point out that the fishery in the Northwest Territories is competently and professionally managed and regulated by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, and we have an exceptionally healthy, well-managed stock. In fact, our problems today, contrary to those elsewhere, have very little to do with the stock, but more with capacity and production.

Again for context, let me provide you with a bit of history. The commercial fishery on Great Slave Lake has been in existence since the 1940s, when it was largely unregulated and controlled by buyers serving growing markets in southern Canada and the United States. In those years, fishing was good, but the resource was overexploited. In about 1950, 4,500 metric tonnes were taken from Great Slave Lake. Lake trout as a population was almost wiped out entirely, and whitefish became and remains today the dominant species.

In the 1950s and 1960s, the Government of Canada, through DFO, stepped in to bring about regulation and control. A commercial quota approximating 1,650 metric tonnes was established, as well as a restricted entry regime regulated by vessel certificates that allowed for only a limited number of fishing vessels to be on the lake. All of these certificates were fully subscribed up until the early 2000s.

These vessel certificates are reissued each year. Holders of these certificates do not own these certificates, nor can they attach themselves through the certificates to a quota of fish. These certificates have no monetary value assigned to them, so offer fishers no support in securing bank financing.

In 1969 the Government of Canada introduced the Freshwater Fish Marketing Act. This act established a federal crown corporation, the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation, or FFMC. The purpose of the act and the FFMC was to regulate interprovincial and export marketing of fish in western and northern Canada. The fishers of the Northwest Territories support their ongoing relationship with FFMC.

In about 1970 the Government of Canada, through the FFMC, established a fully certified fish plant in Hay River and fish collection stations strategically situated around Great Slave Lake. The lake stations allowed fishers to deliver fish to FFMC without having to transport these back to Hay River. These lake stations enabled fishers to follow the fish around Great Slave Lake.

From the 1970s through to the early 2000s, the fishery provided a reasonable income for fishers, who for the most part were made fairly secure in their circumstance largely due to a restrictive licensing regime put in place in the 1970s. Over 250 people, 90% of them aboriginal, were actively involved in the fishery.

The principal species for Great Slave Lake fishers is export-grade whitefish. This species represents 90% to 95% of the annual fish harvest. This species grade allows our whitefish to be exported from Canada to markets around the globe. Given the fat content of Great Slave Lake whitefish, it is often directed by FFMC to the smoked fish markets found in Canada, the United States, and abroad. Others species of fish harvested include trout, pickerel, cony, and northern jackfish, the latter being highly sought after in France and other countries in the European Union.

While the Government of Canada did play a significant role in the Great Slave Lake commercial fishery through the management regulation as well as initial capital investments, this has not been a one-sided effort by any means. The fishers, through their production, paid all the costs associated with the FFMC operation of the commercial fishery. The Government of the Northwest Territories has also provided for freight support to transport fish from Great Slave Lake to the FFMC plant in Winnipeg.

This support allows fishers on Great Slave Lake to deliver their fish, gutted and gilled, to the fish plant in Hay River or to the lake stations, where it is packed on ice and shipped to FFMC's Transcona plant in Winnipeg for processing and sale through their national and international marketing network. This support also ensures that the fishers on Great Slave Lake receive the same price for their fish as the fishermen from Lake Winnipeg. This cost, from the mid-1980s to date, is in the millions of dollars. In addition, the Government of the Northwest Territories has also provided capital assistance to fishers looking to upgrade and modernize their equipment.

The most significant changes to this fishery occurred between 2003 and 2008, when costs of operations exploded and revenues declined. External influences took hold. The weakening U.S. dollar and economy and the unprecedented rise in the price of fuel resulted in a dramatic drop in production and participation. Production declined from almost 1,000 metric tonnes to less than 300 metric tonnes in a span of two years or less. Only 20% of the commercial quota is being harvested today.

All equity in this fishery was lost in a very few short years. Many fishers lost hope and simply put their vessels on shore. Vessel certificates, which always were oversubscribed since they were introduced in the 1970s, were now available to anyone who made application for them.

In response, the FFMC imposed dramatic cost-cutting measures to simply survive and meet its mandate of cost neutrality. The effect of these measures, combined with rising costs of production, brought our commercial fishery to near collapse. Production over the next several years dropped dramatically. The winter fishery was closed, the lake stations disposed of, and the FFMC on-site management diminished considerably.

Now, in 2013, the commercial fishery on Great Slave Lake is slowly rebounding. Deliveries of fish to the FFMC are marginally increasing, and new markets are emerging here in the NWT. This government has supported a number of fishers, who are now developing a domestic commercial market for fish fillets here in the NWT. Volumes are approximately 90 metric tonnes per year. This is very small relative to the overall quota. While small, almost all of the production is being sold in an added-value format, meaning more employment and income for this fishery. The local market is growing annually. We will continue to make investments directed not only at building capacity but also in branding our whitefish and other species to distinguish these products from others that are being imported regularly into the NWT.

While fishers' equity remains very weak, we do have a willing partner in the FFMC. But they find themselves hampered by economic burdens. The FFMC, by virtue of its own legislation, is neither nimble enough nor capable enough to affect the status quo. The FFMC must operate on a cost-neutral basis. They receive no subsidy from Canada. The FFMC lake stations are gone, and the main FFMC fish plant, established in the early 1970s, is literally falling down and too costly to repair and operate.

We now find ourselves in the dilemma of having a healthy, viable stock of fish, willing markets both in the NWT and elsewhere, but a rapidly declining capacity to deliver. If we fail to solve this dilemma, then the future of this fishery is not very bright. Canadian markets face the prospect of losing a valuable and, without question, sustainable food source harvested from clean, cold, pristine northern waters. These are not simply marketing attributes.

The Great Slave Lake today is one of the last great water bodies in North America not impacted by industrialization or urbanization. The water is clean and safe from contaminants. But we can't be complacent. Climate change is certainly a reality. Such invasive species as Asian carp and zebra mussels have wreaked havoc on other water bodies in North America. Downstream pollutants, regardless of the source, are always a threat. We need the support of the federal government to put in place the means and protections to ensure that the integrity of Great Slave Lake is safeguarded for future generations.

In terms of the commercial fishery, a small investment of approximately $5 million over the next several years would make all the difference to this small industry. This investment would not only bring capital for a new plant but would also provide the means to reinvigorate a very tired and aged fleet. An investment of this size could very well result in attracting 200-plus northern residents back to the fishery, leading it to a new era of self-sufficiency and returning it to the status of a smarter, leaner, more nimble industry once again.

We here in the NWT would be happy to work with the federal government and look at building the business case for this type of investment. We firmly believe there is a future for this fishery and it will certainly be worth the effort in trying to save it.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I'd also like to thank your committee members for their indulgence this morning.

Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you very much, Minister. We do appreciate your giving us this presentation.

At this time, the bells are ringing for a vote in the House of Commons. I apologize once again for the inconvenience, but we will reconvene as soon as possible after the vote. I'm assuming that will be at around quarter after 12 eastern time.

Thank you very much, Minister, for being here today and for taking the time to make this presentation to us. We look forward to the opportunity to question you or officials, whatever the time allows.

The meeting stands suspended.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

I'll call this meeting back to order.

Gentlemen, I want to thank you very much for your patience. We certainly appreciate the opportunity to ask some questions.

Minister, thank you for bearing with us.

We're going to start off with our seven-minute rounds of questions. Just as a point of interest, please don't be offended if I interrupt at some point in time. Members are constrained by certain time limits on questions and answers in the interest of fairness. If I do interrupt, I apologize in advance.

We're going to start off with Mr. Sopuck.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

Thank you to our guests.

Thank you, Minister, for so generously giving us your time. You live in one of the most beautiful parts of the world. As a young fisheries biologist back in the seventies, I had the pleasure of working in the Mackenzie Valley for a number of years. I lived in Fort Simpson for a while and did some of the early work during the Mackenzie Valley environmental assessment days. It's a terrific part of the world, and from what I hear you say, it's as unspoiled as ever.

The other thing is that my colleague Mr. Weston, who is our caucus leader in the fitness area, wanted us to congratulate you for being the first city to declare National Health and Fitness Day. There are all kinds of great things going on in Yellowknife.

Regarding the commercial fishery, what is the potential for expanding the commercial fishery beyond Great Slave Lake?

12:15 p.m.

Minister, Department of Industry, Tourism and Investment, Government of the Northwest Territories

David Ramsay

Thanks, Mr. Sopuck.

It would be limited. We have Great Bear Lake a little further north, but because of the cold, fish take a long time to grow in that lake. There might be some opportunity in the Mackenzie River, but it would be limited.

We believe Great Slave Lake is the most viable of our options here in the NWT. It's obviously a lot closer to market. We have the railhead at Hay River. We have the highway system and air transport out of Yellowknife and Hay River. Great Slave Lake is the primary objective here for our future in the commercial fishery.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

Given the development of the mining industry and the growth in the NWT—and of course a lot of these mines have camps where lots of workers live, and they all have to be fed, obviously—what's the potential to market Great Slave Lake whitefish into those mining camps and indeed the other communities in the NWT?

12:15 p.m.

Minister, Department of Industry, Tourism and Investment, Government of the Northwest Territories

David Ramsay

We think it's really good. We've made some strides trying to get local take-up of the fish. I hear in Yellowknife it's easy; the fishermen are able to sell it here in Yellowknife. We're looking to expand that operation. We've also put some mobile fish and meat processing units into the communities at Deline and Fort Good Hope. That's under way and that is going to enable people there to process fish and meat and make sure it gets onto the tables in those communities.

We're looking at opportunities to do a lot more of that. There are ample opportunities here; we just need to go after them. We're doing that and making some strides in that regard.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

You mentioned the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation and the overall support of fishermen—and, I gather, your government—for the FFMC, but you were also a little bit critical about some of the things that FFMC does. That, at least, is what I thought. In terms of change in the FFMC and how they would operate in the NWT, what would you want to see changed at the FFMC so your fishery could be more viable?

12:20 p.m.

Minister, Department of Industry, Tourism and Investment, Government of the Northwest Territories

David Ramsay

First and foremost we'd like to see more investment here in the Northwest Territories. As I mentioned in my opening comments, the plant in Hay River is in desperate need of repair or even a new replacement facility. We've met with the FFMC. We believe there is a way forward and that we can work with the FFMC. I believe the fisherman on Great Slave Lake want us to work with the FFMC. We need to find a way forward. We need to get some capital here so we can put those fish plants in the locations around the lake the way we used to have and also look at modernizing the fleet that is on Great Slave Lake. That's going to take some effort and some money. We are interested in talking to any partner we can find to help us to do that and get that work carried out.

My belief is we have a great resource there. It's underutilized and we need to be doing much more than we're currently doing.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

From some of the research material that was given to us, it looks like the recreational fishery is worth almost $7 million a year, or at least it was in 2010. The total value of the freshwater catch in 2011 was $381,000. That's quite an imbalance there.

In terms of the recreational fishery, what potential is there to expand the recreational fishery primarily from the standpoint of non-resident tourists coming up to fish and providing an economic resource for the NWT?

12:20 p.m.

Minister, Department of Industry, Tourism and Investment, Government of the Northwest Territories

David Ramsay

Thanks. That's a great question, Mr. Sopuck.

Just yesterday I had dinner with the head of NWT Tourism. We talked about a new marketing campaign that NWT Tourism is going to initiate on fishing. We used to get many more tourists into the Northwest Territories to fish. We've seen that go on a sharp decline.

We believe with the right type of marketing we can get people back here to fish in the Northwest Territories. We have a world-class fishery here of jackfish, lake trout, grayling, pickerel. We need to be marketing that and to put more of a concerted effort into marketing.

With our marketing arm, NWT Tourism, we're going to do that. Plans are under way for us to really be aggressive and try to get people back here fishing.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

I can personally attest to that. One of the most sublime fly-fishing experiences is dry fly-fishing for grayling on the Mackenzie. I think you have a real winner there.

Have you explored the aquaculture potential in the NWT? When you think of the Icy Waters facility in Yukon, are you looking at perhaps recreating that in the NWT?

12:20 p.m.

Minister, Department of Industry, Tourism and Investment, Government of the Northwest Territories

David Ramsay

We've done some work on that, Mr. Sopuck.

Mr. Colford has more of a history with the department when it comes to aquaculture, so perhaps I'll turn to him on that.

12:20 p.m.

John Colford Director, Investment and Economic Analysis, Department of Industry, Tourism and Investment, Government of the Northwest Territories

We looked at the aquaculture industry a couple of years ago with a variety of stakeholders, and there was just no appeal to it. There was just no appetite for getting into that industry at all. The preference was to stay with the open-water fishery.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

Thank you.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you very much, Mr. Sopuck.

Mr. Chisholm.

12:20 p.m.

NDP

Robert Chisholm NDP Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Minister, I'd like to thank you and your colleagues for taking time to come and talk with us today. As you know, we hope to be visiting you sometime within the next while, hopefully before the end of 2013, if we can ever get down to making some decisions.

I appreciated your presentation, and I have a couple of things I want to ask you.

One is with regard to the change in governance. The final devolution agreement that has been negotiated—the legislation passed here, and I believe it passed there—provides that inland fisheries management will be transferred from DFO over this next year. Could you comment in terms of how you see those negotiations going? What do you think are a couple of the key points to ensure that this transfer happens smoothly and effectively?

12:20 p.m.

Minister, Department of Industry, Tourism and Investment, Government of the Northwest Territories

David Ramsay

Thank you for the question, Mr. Chisholm.

Our focus is to continue moving toward implementation of the devolution deal. That should happen by April of next year. We have a lot of things in the works right now in preparation for getting us ready for April of next year. We've had numerous cabinet meetings. We're talking about organizational design.

Really, our government for the next nine months will be in a state of flux. We'll be receiving a number of federal employees over to the GNWT. We may be setting up a couple of new departments.

All of this is in the works, and it's a very exciting time for us here in the NWT. All of these things have to be managed effectively and put in place so that come April of next year, the Government of the Northwest Territories will be able to manage that responsibility effectively. We're hopeful that we can do that.

We're appreciative of the federal government working with us on the devolution agreement. We've seen the success that's taken place in the Yukon Territory. We certainly believe that once we have control over the management of our resources, we'll be able to maximize the opportunities for businesses and people who live here in the NWT, and grow our economy accordingly.

We have a very bright future ahead of us.

12:25 p.m.

NDP

Robert Chisholm NDP Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Thank you for that, Mr. Ramsay. I'm sure that members of this committee over the next year, whoever those members will be, would be happy to provide any assistance to you as you go forward, to make sure that the transition happens smoothly.

I want to also ask you about the traditional economy, the fishery. Could you talk to us a bit about the impact of climate change on that economy, on the fishery, both in terms of fish and sea mammals?

12:25 p.m.

Minister, Department of Industry, Tourism and Investment, Government of the Northwest Territories

David Ramsay

Thanks for the question, Mr. Chisholm.

We have a very robust traditional economy division within the department, focusing on fur. We also have programs such as Take a Kid Trapping and Take a Kid Harvesting.

We spend a lot of money promoting the traditional economy here in the NWT. We've seen prices rise for fur. Just recently in Seattle we sold $800,000 worth of fur at auction. That money goes directly back into communities, small communities where unemployment levels are high. We've had a great deal of success in trying to grow that traditional economy here.

We see fishing as part of that. Again, in response to Mr. Sopuck's questions, we have a way to go. We're looking at putting those mobile processing units into smaller communities so people can process meat and fish at the local level and get it onto tables. That food security issue is a big issue here. We need to ensure that we're giving people the tools that are going to enable them to take advantage of the resources that are abundantly available. That's our focus. We're moving forward.

We have a tremendous amount of resources. You talk about minerals and oil and gas, but really, the fundamental problem in this is providing that economy at the community level and in the smaller communities. We've done a great deal, and we'll continue to work on growing the traditional economy here in the NWT. Certainly, fishing will figure prominently in that.

12:25 p.m.

NDP

Robert Chisholm NDP Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Thank you, Minister Ramsay.

I was thinking when I raised the issue of climate change that we've certainly heard and read a lot about impacts and perceived impacts. One of the things we're looking at in our study, of course, is the challenges that are facing the north.

One of those issues has to do with the impact of climate change in terms of how much of the year ice is present, the whole question of permafrost, your ability to transport goods and services, and the ability of communities to continue to carry out those traditional activities. That's what I wanted to get your response on.

12:25 p.m.

Minister, Department of Industry, Tourism and Investment, Government of the Northwest Territories

David Ramsay

That's good, Mr. Chisholm.

As you probably already know, I'm the Minister of Transportation as well, so I know what it costs us, what impact climate change has on our transportation infrastructure in the NWT, and what are the repairs needed on an annual basis to our roads because of permafrost.

I think what we're seeing here with climate change is that where we put in ice roads, we're not able to maintain them as long. The season is not as long.

We've had some years.... As an example, I think it was in 2008 that the mining companies north of Yellowknife, which are dependent on the ice road for resupply, saw the season shortened by I think three or four weeks. It cost them $100 million to bring goods into the mines north of Yellowknife.

We also see some impact in the northern part of the territory, with beluga getting trapped in the Husky Lakes. We could probably attribute that to climate change as well.

I wanted to mention this specifically as well. On Great Slave Lake, we've seen the return of lake trout and inconnu into Yellowknife Bay. According to the aboriginal people, they had been in abundance in Yellowknife Bay prior to the mines coming to Yellowknife in the 1930s. The fish disappeared for basically 70 years, and those fish are coming back.

Con Mine shut down a number of years ago. For the Giant Mine, as you know, we're still looking at a significant investment by the federal government to clean up the mine site. But there's no blasting there, and there's no mining taking place near Yellowknife, and the fish are back in Yellowknife Bay. We believe that's a result of the mines closing down a number of years ago. The fish are back, so I wanted to mention that as well.

Thank you.