Fisheries Committee on March 31st, 2014

[Robert Chisholm, NDP, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Mr. King, I'm sorry. It's really important that this information get out, but I don't have enough time. So I'm going to ask one other question, and maybe in your answer to that one you can add to that.

The main estimates indicate an $8.5-million decrease between 2012 and 2014 for ocean forecasting. I wonder if you could explain the reason for this decrease, especially given that all three of our oceans are currently undergoing significant change, including ocean acidification, warming, and changes in ice coverage.

[Matthew King]

I'd be happy to. I'm going to turn to Mr. Gillis to do that.

[David Gillis]

Yes, there have been several sets of changes to some of our program activity boxes in the department, including this one, and it is confusing to look on the face of those numbers and see what has been going on.

With the ocean forecasting program, what we have is that in 2011 and then again in 2012 we had a lot of money coming in to that program in order for us to conduct our climate change adaptation program. Climate change programming is very heavily based on oceanographic science; that's the underpinning for a lot of the considerations that go into climate change trends and predictions. So when we received our funding, it went into that programming box and it made it look like there was an increase.

Then, for the third year of the program, we actually created our own program box for climate change, so the money came back out of the ocean forecasting box when the climate change went into its own program activity architecture box. So on the face of it, it looked like there were significant changes between those two programs, but in fact it was money flowing in and then out 18 months later.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

We'll now go to Mr. Kamp.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here.

There are just a couple of areas I'd like to cover and a third if time allows. Earlier, in the discussion with the minister, the issue of ITQs on the west coast with respect to salmon was raised. I'm not sure if the member opposite said explicitly—he certainly implied—that the department has an agenda with respect to ITQs with respect to salmon. It's my understanding that there's an advisory process ongoing, that industry is talking about this.

I just wonder if you can give us a little bit more detail so that we really understand what's going on there.

[David Bevan, Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

I believe that we've been looking at how to manage the salmon fishery in British Columbia over the last number of years. Clearly this year we're not going to be faced with—at least hopefully not—an abundance issue. But in the past we've had to manage small fisheries, and there was a problem with the entire fleet. They couldn't show up and have it properly managed, so efforts were under way to look at different approaches to managing those smaller contained fisheries so that they could be opened under different circumstances. Instead of having all the gillnets, for example, show up at an opening, we would have a small number pool or go to quotas, etc., to prosecute those fisheries. Those kinds of discussions have been ongoing with the industry, so it's not just an ITQ imposition on the fleet, it's a different approach to allow for those smaller contained fisheries to take place if there's an opportunity and a smaller surplus than otherwise would support a bigger fishery.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Okay, good. I appreciate that.

The main estimates talk about the $24.3 million for the strengthening of the prevention, preparedness, and response regime to oil spills and part of our efforts to have a world-class tanker safety program.

I just wonder, Commissioner Grégoire, if you can just give us a bit more of an idea of where we're at on that. It talks about phases and stages, and if you can give us a bit more of an outline, I'd appreciate it.

[Marc Grégoire, Commissioner, Canadian Coast Guard, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

Yes, certainly.

First of all, I guess, the largest piece of that funding relates to the implementation in the coast guard of the incident command system. This is a system that will allow us to manage large crises in a far better way than we have done until now.

First of all, it will allow us to manage crises with all of the involved parties, the province, the municipalities—all the players together at the same table. We had the opportunity to practise that during the Zalinski operation on the west coast, and it works very well. A good part of that money is actually to build a command centre—so to speak—in Ottawa to manage crises at a national level. It's to buy a computer system to allow all of the coast guard people involved in a crisis to work and deport on the same platform. It allows for money for funding for the training of our people. That would be the bulk of it.

There are a number of other initiatives. Some of that money goes to science, and maybe Mr. Gillis will explain that.

[David Gillis]

Thank you, Mr. Grégoire.

Yes, there is another large component of the world-class tanker safety system, which goes to a number of supporting science issues. I'll mention four briefly.

First of all, we received some funding, which has largely been spent now, to improve the charts in the areas of the west coast where development might be anticipated. That work is very largely complete. We'll be wrapping that up in the current year. That's the first item.

The second item is that in the same area we are doing some work in association with Environment Canada to improve our capacity to model the movement of water masses in that area. It's a dynamic oceanographic modelling exercise that is important for us to develop in order to help project where a spill in the water may go and when, so that can be informative of efforts to deal with and recover those products.

In association with that, we are putting some significant resources into our research facility, which is actually on the east coast. It's at the Bedford Institute but is established nationally to do research related to the “fate and behaviour” of oils in the marine ecosystem, the marine environment. In particular in this case, we're focusing on the diluted bitumen—dilbit—products that might be at issue in that development. We're doing a number of trials of how bitumen behaves and what happens to it over time in a range of environmental conditions that are common on the west coast.

The last item, and it's a fairly large one, is to do what we call resource inventory. Really, this is code for us collecting all of the information that we have about resources and resource-based activities on the west coast, and to organize that, see the gaps, and fill some of the key gaps so we'll have a very organized information base that we can use to help provide advice on the design and implementation of the project.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you, Mr. Gillis.

Thank you, Mr. Kamp.

Mr. Cleary.

[Ryan Cleary, NDP, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

My first question—I have two—is for Mr. Gillis.

Mr. Gillis, when the minister was here, I asked a question about what seem to be impending cuts to the shrimp stocks off Newfoundland and Labrador. I know that in a later answer you mentioned how ocean conditions have impacts on stocks—a big impact. There's no doubt that warming water temperatures, for example, do have an impact, but in the fall in the commercial groundfish fisheries such as cod or flounder, for example, if you were to mention the impact of ocean conditions to anyone back home in Newfoundland and Labrador and say that it was a primary reason for why stocks fell, they'd laugh at you.

The bottom line is that I think what's generally acknowledged is that mismanagement and overfishing are behind the fall of most of our commercial groundfish fisheries, for example. Again, bringing it back to when the minister was here, now we see a huge decline in the biomass of shrimp. That's going to lead to huge cuts in shrimp quotas, and again you talk about ocean conditions, so I have to take you up on that. How much faith should people have in DFO science or in the department itself when we see commercial stock after commercial stock fall? The offshore shrimp is just the latest in a whole line of stocks that have fallen under this department. How much faith should we have in the science, sir?

[David Bevan]

Mr. Chairman, I'd like to answer that.

We have a great deal of confidence in the science regarding shrimp and crab, and other species that are subject to changes in the natural environment.

When we were managing cod—and the changes took place that impacted the productivity of cod—we never adjusted our fishing practices at that time, and we've learned an awful lot from that.

What we're facing right now are changing oceanographic conditions off Newfoundland, in particular. We're seeing warmer water temperatures on the bottom and that is having a direct impact on the productivity of crustaceans, and therefore there has been an observed change.

We also have in place the precautionary approach and decision-making framework. So in the shrimp fishery, for example, our decision rules are that we keep a very low harvest rate on those populations.

If you look at the declines in the biomass, you're seeing a 33% decline in area 6, a 48% decline in area 5 as we go north, and a 21% decline in area 4. Those are significant.

What we need to do is contemplate how to respond to those declines. But we are looking at the maintenance of very low harvest rates, notwithstanding that.

We had a harvest rate in the north of about 8%, which is low for a short-lived animal. We are going to maintain harvest rates at a level that will be acceptable to the Marine Stewardship Council and to us in terms of our precautionary framework. So we're not going to exceed a 20% harvest rate in these areas.

You can see that the declines are not coming from fishing efforts because the declines are greater than the harvest rates. We're seeing a change in the productivity of these populations relative to the new oceanographic conditions.

They're shifting back to what it was like in the sixties and seventies when the groundfish were in good shape. We're also seeing some improvement in groundfish, but not as rapidly as we're seeing the changes in the shellfish.

The reality is that we live in a natural system, and we have to respond to that and adapt to that natural system, and that's just the reality we're facing.

I think the idea that—

[Ryan Cleary, NDP, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

I'm sorry to interrupt, Mr. Bevan. I have just another minute so I want to get another quick question in.

I do want to take you up on one point, though, that we are seeing some increase in groundfish levels. But still, 1% of 1960 levels for cod fish, for example, for me, is no increase whatsoever.

My second question has to do with a question that Mr. MacAulay asked earlier in terms of DFO libraries. As a parliamentarian I can ask a question on the order paper in the House of Commons, and I put in a question. My question was for a list of all documents, materials, books, research papers that have been destroyed by the department in Newfoundland and Labrador due to the closure of the library.

The response I got back to the question on the order paper was a charge to me totalling $675. My question is, do you see that as being cost prohibitive? DFO wouldn't be trying to hide anything, would they, Mr. Bevan, when they do not release the information?

[David Bevan]

No.

First off, on the cod, I would point out that it's 15% of its former level, so it's up from 1% to 15%.

[Ryan Cleary, NDP, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Northern cod?

[David Bevan]

Yes.

[Ryan Cleary, NDP, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

It's 15% of 1960 levels, sir?

[David Bevan]

It's gone back up to 15% of its limit reference point, so it's gone up by a considerable amount, but not enough to support any kind of economic activity.

[Ryan Cleary, NDP, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

And not 15% either....

[David Bevan]

It's 15% of its limit reference point.

[Ryan Cleary, NDP, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Northern cod is at 15% of 1960 levels?

[David Bevan]

No, of the limit reference point, so it's not the same thing.

On the question you asked on the order paper, we provide that information. We go very thoroughly through all our information, and I have to attest to the accuracy and veracity of that information and we take that very seriously. I don't have an answer to your question here with me but certainly we'll get back to you on that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Sopuck.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Thank you.

Mr. Gillis, can we say that the Pacific salmon can be considered an environmental indicator of conditions off the west coast, and indeed, of the system itself, including the freshwater spawning habitat?

[David Gillis]

I'm not trying to be evasive here, but I think what I would say is any species—when you understand a bit about its relationship with the environment in which it operates—indicates something about the state of that ecosystem.

As I said earlier, in the case of Pacific salmon this year, if our estimates are at all accurate, it looks like the current year class that's returning this year in 2014 has experienced relatively good conditions in the ocean that have allowed them to be productive and to survive, and also benefited from having a very large year class to start them off. There was very high production of small salmon from the 2010 return. So in that sense I think it is an indicator of a certain set of environmental conditions.

I think, though, like we are discussing with some other species, an ecosystem might be favourable to one species but not so favourable to another. Each type of animal in the ocean, and it would be generally true, has a set of environmental conditions that favour their productivity and others that don't.

I wouldn't jump to a conclusion about any one species, but certainly for Pacific salmon right now it looks like that ecosystem has been productive in recent times.