Fisheries Committee on May 26th, 2014

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

It's different. I know.

[Eric Gilbert]

We have the best aquaculture practices under the Global Aquaculture Alliance. We have the ASC that is coming, which is issuing from the same body as the MSC. It is the Aquaculture Stewardship Council.

Kevin is right. The Monterey Bay Aquarium is just providing a list that, in terms of comprehensiveness, has nothing to do with the certification process.

[Kevin Stringer]

It's not certification; it's their list, and in fact—

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I'd like to know what it is, then, if it's not certification.

[Nadia Bouffard]

It's their judgment on a fishery.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

In fact, with regard to eco-certification, when you feed all this into the governing body that decides who is the god in this and who issues the certification or who does not, my concern is that this would take a lot of power away from the Government of Canada. As far as the products are concerned, it takes the power away, and even the blame away, from the Government of Canada, but they don't care who the government is. Is that a legitimate concern?

I don't say we're going to be able to stop it. I well understand this is well down the road. It's a world concept. To me, it's kind of like growing environmentally proper potatoes without fertilizer and this type of thing. Certain people want this type of product. Is this where we're heading in the fishing industry?

[Kevin Stringer]

It really is an independent market-based thing.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

It's a serious one.

[Kevin Stringer]

All this certifying body can do is decide that something is certified and they'll let you put their label on it—

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Absolutely.

[Kevin Stringer]

—or it's not certified and they won't let you put their label on it.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

How serious is that label going to be, Mr. Stringer? Where are we going to end up in the world in 10 years' time?

[Kevin Stringer]

Some countries, and in particular some retailers, have said publicly that they will only stock or sell certified, and in some cases, MSC-certified, fish. Most retailers have said something about going with fish that they have evidence to prove has been sustainably fished or that is certified or MSC certified. That is the case in North America and in northern Europe for the most part. We're starting to see some evidence of it in other countries, but for the most part, those are the areas that have done that.

There are still many fisheries that go to markets in which that's not the case, and there are many fisheries that are still stocked in many stores. It really is a decision of the retailer, and then the MSC certifier, whether to do that.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Yes, but I can see it progressing down the road. You talk about part of the European Community has accepted this. My concern is, when you look at.... I think, in all fairness, that the Government of Canada did the best it could, possibly—I hate to say it, but I think perhaps they did—in the seal industry. Is it fair what the European Community did to us in the seal industry? That's a concern that I have.

The problem we have here is that we have a body that's going to decide. You can say whether it's marketing or not, but people are going to decide.... And I know it's government versus.... I know this is not government, but the fact is, when that seal is not on the product because they decide, let's say....

You're well aware of the lobster fishery on the east coast in zone 26. The lobster fishery for about five or six years was very poor. I just wonder what would happen with this group that comes and probably in a bit of a make-work.... I don't want to seem overly critical, and I know we're down this road, but what can we do?

The fact is that somebody comes in here and looks at the lobster fishery in 26. There are five years of terribly low catch, 40 to 60 pounds a day that cannot get certified. Now they're getting 300 and 400 pounds, 500 pounds a day.

That's my concern. Is it a legitimate concern?

[Kevin Stringer]

It is a challenge, absolutely no question. What's going to be very interesting—and I personally think one of the big challenges for these types of certifications—is fisheries such as lobster. In fisheries such as lobster, it is a unique process that doesn't fit easily into the standard approaches. We don't have a total allowable catch for lobster. It's an effort-based fishery. It's managed in a different way, so the MSC certification process, which is under way right now in lobster in Atlantic Canada writ large, is a learning process for the certifiers to understand that there are surrogates for total allowable catch; it's exploitation rate, catch rate, etc. The department is involved in that education process, as are the fishers.

We actually do believe that in our lobster fishery, as in other fisheries, we have good conservation measures and sustainability measures around the carapace size, around the number of traps, around the female egg quantity, around v-notching, etc. It's our job to make sure that they have an understanding of that.

Is there a challenge there? There is a challenge there.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

The only thing I could say to you in rebuttal is that you also feel that we have a sustainable, well-managed, proper seal fishery, and somebody has decided that we can't sell our products in Europe just because they don't like what we do. Norway is in the same boat—I believe it's Norway—but there are other countries in the world.... Perhaps I'm wrong, but anyhow....

[Kevin Stringer]

I just note on that—

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Am I down the wrong track?

[Kevin Stringer]

No, no, no. The issue is it would be interesting to see if the seal fishery, the seal hunt could be certified. No one has ever tested it.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Well, would it ever be? It would be good for the fishery—

[Kevin Stringer]

It has a precautionary approach. It has a total allowable catch. It has all of the things you're supposed to have in a certified fishery.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I think I asked this, but do you see eco-certification taking a lot of the authority away? Even when total allowable catches are decided and this type of thing, it's going to have to fit. I think it could take a lot of discretionary power away from the minister.

How do you see that when you see...? Looking at the lobster fishery in zone 26, just what would happen there when all of a sudden...? Fish swim. I know it's easy to say that, and it's sometimes hard to get people to understand that, but what happened with this fishery.... It's quite lucrative in 26 today. Three years ago it was not. I'm scared of this crew over there—or wherever they are—that are going to come in and say that this is not sustainable.

[Kevin Stringer]

I'd point out that so far, Canada has managed, and our fisheries have managed, to be certified. In every single case we've actually achieved the certification, in 24 cases out of 24 efforts. It's actually being achieved, although not easily for some of the reasons that you've just outlined. It is a challenge. It has changed the game. As you and others have pointed out, this is a new reality we're dealing with, but as long as it lines up with the FAO principles, with the principles that internationally we and others have identified as the sustainability principles that we will live by, we will manage on an ecosystem approach, and a precautionary approach, and will have the appropriate monitoring and fisheries regimes, etc. It's something that we were doing anyway. The challenge is that on a case-by-case basis, it does become a little difficult.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

There were a number of products certified that should not have been certified. How would you comment on that? What happened?

[Kevin Stringer]

I'm not sure which ones you'd be referring to.