Fisheries Committee on May 26th, 2014

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Well, neither am I, if you want to know the truth, but it's on the paper that I have. It came from the Library of Parliament.

There were a number of products that were certified that should not have been. Research has shown that some fisheries have received certification that do not deserve the label. Why did they receive it in the first place, and how can this problem be resolved?

I don't know if you know about this, and I don't know which products.

I've talked about eco-certification for quite a while not knowing a whole lot about it, but with great concern because my biggest concern is that it's taking the authority from them and giving it to somebody somewhere else that you can't get at. It's like not having the minister responsible for quotas. I think a minister needs to be responsible. If they do it wrong, pay the price. That's my concern here.

There is no way around it, I guess, because this is the world we're in and everybody else is in it. I think it's a very serious problem. We're going to have a group of people who are going to decide what products we can.... You can put them on the market, but I'd like to know where if you do not have the label on it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you, Mr. MacAulay.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

They didn't respond.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

You've used your time up. Thank you. Perhaps you'll get another chance.

Ms. Davidson.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thanks very much for being with us once again.

I share some of the same concerns that the last two speakers mentioned. You talked about different countries and different retailers who require this. You also said that it's a voluntary market-driven system.

I'm also confused about this three-point plan. If DFO already does all of this, I fail to see how an outside body can come in and say that it can't be recognized. I guess that comes back to the point that the other two were making.

My question is, as a consumer, what does eco-certification tell me, or what should it be telling me? It's not telling me anything right now. Is it something that the consumers are really aware of, or is this something that's driven by another body that is collecting the fees? I understand it's fairly expensive to be certified. Could you talk a little bit about what the benefits should be to the consumer and what the cost of it is to the fishers?

[Kevin Stringer]

I'll start with the last point and I'll ask others to jump in, in a moment.

Class certification, people will tell you, depends on the fishery. The reality is that it's $100,000 to $150,000 for a fishery, on average, to get certified, so it's not inexpensive.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Is it a continuous certification, or is that a—

[Kevin Stringer]

That's a good point. It's to get certified the first time. Then it costs to meet some of the conditions. Then the certification lasts only five years and you need to get recertified. It's not another $100,000, but it's.... It's not an inexpensive process.

In terms of being involved in this since it really started, I would say there was enormous resistance from industry about a decade ago. They said that this is nonsense, that they weren't going to do this, that it's way too expensive, and no one was going to tell them...that sort of thing.

The reality is that when retailers started to say—and it was Walmart, some big U.S. retailers, and Sainsbury's, Marks & Spencer, and a few others in the U.K., Germany, and France—that by 2013 or whatever the year was they would have only MSC-certified fish or seafood on their shelves, that really changed things.

Why did those retailers make those decisions? They know their consumers. They know their stockholders, etc. That's really what drove this. Then the MSC certification and other certification schemes really took off.

It's to the point now where a lot of fisheries really believe this is the cost of doing business now. It's just part of, as was said by others, the reality here.

I'll tell you candidly that a decade ago when this was getting going, governments were of two minds about whether to get involved in it. Part of it was exactly like the comments that are being made around this table that it's the government's responsibility to say whether it's well-managed, etc. On the other hand, these certification regimes were being established and if we weren't going to be involved in making sure that the record was set the right way, we needed to be involved in some way.

We've always said that it is indeed a market-based decision, based on retailers and then individual fisheries groups saying, “We want to get certified and we will support this in whatever way we can.”

I'm sorry; you did have another question that I've lost.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

It was on the benefit to consumers.

[Nadia Bouffard]

To complement what Kevin has said, I think there's been an evolution in the story and what we've learned through this trend. Retailers and the food service sector have been supporting the eco-labelling and eco-certification movement mainly because of the pressures that ENGOs have put on them. It's not consumers putting pressure on them; it's the ENGOs putting pressure on them. They've developed these demands over time, and the department has engaged with these retailers here in Canada and abroad, in the U.S. and in Europe, to get a better sense, and to give them the story and explain to them how fisheries are managed.

I've seen an evolution in that to the point where they don't necessarily take for granted some of what they hear, which they did in the first place in the earlier days. The consumers themselves in their own shopping centres or in the restaurants are not the majority asking for the information. In fact, consumers are looking to retailers and to restaurant owners to do the job for them.

When you buy a lamp at a store and there's a little sticker on it, do you read the sticker? The sticker's about the CSA—

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Yes, I do.

[Nadia Bouffard]

The majority of people don't.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

My husband is a fireman.

[Nadia Bouffard]

Good for you, but the majority of people don't read that. They take it for granted that the sticker is there and that the retailer selling the lamp has done his or her job making sure that those rules are met and that they're selling a safe product.

I think the sustainability movement will eventually get there. I think that's why the majority of consumers are not necessarily paying attention to this. The benefits to them are unknown for the most part. Some consumers will know and will identify certain check marks given by the MSC or other organizations, but the majority of consumers will go for price and quality way before they'll ever look at sustainability. I'm saying this not because DFO has done studies on this, but industry has and has given us the results of those studies. They may be able to provide you with that information.

At the end of the day, retailers and food service are getting the pressure from ENGOs. There's a decision to be made by industry on where to sell their products. Some of their buyers are saying, “We won't buy it unless you have this eco-label or this eco-certification.” It's up to them to decide that if they want to sell into northern Europe, if they want to sell into some parts of the U.S., they're required to meet their buyers' needs and demands. Some of them require these certifications, and some of them don't. Alternatively, not going through an eco-certification process and selling to different markets is always an option.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Is there standard eco-certification labelling, or are there different systems? Is there a general rating system, such as a sustainable labelling program as opposed to the eco-certification program?

[Nadia Bouffard]

Not really. The basis of it all is the FAO responsible fishing code, so the MSC standard, the responsible fisheries standard, many of the standards including those which were referred to earlier. The Monterey Bay Aquarium, the New England Aquarium, all use the FAO code of conduct as the basic set of what you need in the fisheries or an aquaculture management regime. Those are general rules developed by governments. What these organizations have done is fleshed them out into performance indicators with more specificity to be able to assess whether or not the industry and the fishery are meeting them.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

You said that this eco-certification started in Europe in the forestry industry and then moved into fisheries. Has it developed in other areas as well?

[Kevin Stringer]

What examples would we give?

[Nadia Bouffard]

In other areas other than forestry and fisheries? In agriculture, yes; in other sources of food products, yes.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you, Ms. Davidson.

Mr. Chisholm.

[Robert Chisholm, NDP, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

I find this very interesting. I have to say that a couple of hearings ago, when my colleague across the way raised concerns about eco-certification and giving up control to foreigners or third parties, I didn't understand where he was going with that and why there was concern. I think that the more I learn the more I disagree that this should be a concern. It's not that.... I mean, DFO is doing the best it can under the circumstances, and the government and so on, but I don't see why it's a problem for industries and/or consumers, whoever drives it. Ultimately, it's consumers, I guess, who want to know certain things about the products they buy or who think they want to know certain things about the products they buy. The standards in effect all come eventually from the principles set by DFO, so I don't quite get that concern.

I thought it was interesting, Mr. Stringer, in response to one of the questions and the comments on what kind of a boat and the MSC and these other eco-certification groups always looking for more.... I think what you said was interesting, that almost always, whenever there is a certification done, there are conditions put on, and those conditions often relate to things that are already on your plate, that are already in your plan, but as a result perhaps of budgetary considerations or whatever, you haven't been able to get to them.

[Kevin Stringer]

I would say—

[Robert Chisholm, NDP, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

I haven't asked my question—

[Kevin Stringer]

I'm sorry.