Fisheries Committee on May 14th, 2015

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Mr. MacPherson, we hear things. I live down there too, and you hear about how the tuna are fished and how the tuna are fished in different places around the world.

Do you attend the ICCAT meetings? Are you aware of what takes place? What I'm getting at is how the tuna are fished away from Prince Edward Island, away from Atlantic Canada. We seem to fish rod and reel, and it's fished in an altogether different.... I'd like you to explain to the committee—if true—some of the complaints I hear about the fish being a migratory species. I'd just like you to elaborate on what takes place in the fishery as it moves towards Atlantic Canada.

[Ian MacPherson]

Certainly, it's correct that rod and reel are used. It's a method that a lot of people are familiar with. It gives the fish a fighting chance. As we know, there are other areas of the world that use seining techniques or nets or other things—

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

That's what I was referring to, Mr. MacPherson. Is that taking care of the fish first, as you referred to when starting, or is that the way you look at it? Is that the way the PEIFA looks at it, or how Prince Edward Island fishermen look at it or Atlantic Canadian fishermen?

[Ian MacPherson]

I can just speak for P.E.I., but I know we have a very passionate group over here that's very focused on sustainability, and the people who are going into the charter business, for example, are not going to recoup that money over a few years. They're looking at the long term, so preservation of the stock, sustainability of the stock, and giving the fish a fair chance are all key factors when we look at it.

I'll just to allude to something that Mr. Jenkins mentioned earlier. There was some unnecessary concern a few years back that, if the charter fishery were opened up, there would be this huge flood of people getting into it, and then no one would be making a decent living at it. That certainly hasn't been the case. I think the fishing community has a good ability to judge where there's a good business opportunity and how they want to pursue it. If there are those opportunities out there, then they will pursue them.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

What I'm trying to get at is that you mentioned briefly in one of your remarks—either you or Bobby—that nets are used and that there are other methods of catching the fish. This is a migratory source. The only thing that's sure is that people in Prince Edward Island and Atlantic Canada fish it properly, but it's not much different if the fish are mostly all gone before they get there. That's what I'm getting at.

[Bobby Jenkins]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll respond to the question.

You're absolutely right to bring that up. We probably have the most sustainable fleet going in Atlantic Canada—the P.E.I. fleet. We can take 350 guys off the water on two hours' notice if we get close to catching our quota. In other countries, yes, there are hundreds and hundreds of miles of longline set, there are gigantic drift nets, there is everything you can imagine. When the fish leave here they have to run the gauntlet to get through that stuff. Absolutely, they do. Do we practise any of that stuff here? Absolutely not, we don't. We put the fish first. We always have.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I have never been at an ICCAT meeting, but, Mr. MacPherson—the Canadian government, or whoever represents, or your group or whatever, who goes to the ICCAT meetings—are there discussions on how the fish are fished when they leave the Atlantic waters? That's what I'm trying to get at. If you have a migratory source—and we do it as efficiently as possible—and somewhere else they're netting them all up, to me that's not fair. Is that brought up at the ICCAT meetings?

[Ian MacPherson]

As I mentioned, I don't attend them personally, but certainly Mr. Drake makes a full report when he gets back. Those types of concerns are passed on from the Canadian delegation, in terms of how we conduct our fishery and the concerns about how some of the other fisheries are conducted. To answer your question, yes, those are topics of conversation at those meetings.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

It's not easy to deal with because you're dealing with an international area, and other countries can make their own laws. We make our own, and that's what we're dealing with effectively. What gets me is that we hear this talk about tuna, and the quota being cut, because the numbers are down. With the way we fish in Atlantic Canada, and the way it's fished around the world, it is not fair. I want to be sure it's on the record here that you feel there's a problem in this area. It's not due to any government in particular; it's all governments here in Canada. Over the years it seems like we're at the mercy of other people taking stock in a much more efficient way than we do. How do we deal with that? Is it a matter for the government to deal with? It's no good for DFO, or your committee, to go to the ICCAT meetings. There's no way at all, I guess, to deal with this other than let them take it. Is that the way it is?

[Bobby Jenkins]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll respond to the member's question.

I'm glad you brought that up, Lawrence. It wasn't very long ago there was an article in the National Geographic about Libya trading tuna for guns. It was there for anybody to read. I read it. It didn't shed a very good light on the fishery. You're right to bring it up. Some of the stuff has to be done at an international level, and it has to be done by the highest levels of government.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Okay.

Bobby, I think you feel that this catch and release is economically good, but there's some strain between the commercial fishery and the catch-and-release fishery. With this 3.4% figure that we have—and then there was a double-digit figure that was used—I think it's important that somebody does a study and makes sure that the proper.... We have had people before us here indicating figures of basically around 3% or 4%. We need to get that established. We can't have this strain between the two types of fisheries. What do you suggest to the committee?

[Bobby Jenkins]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My response to what we could do.... I mentioned earlier it's a relatively new fishery, the catch and release. We probably have to go back to the drawing board and maybe do some more tagging and stuff just to see what's going on. There are a lot of people that aren't buying 3.4%, okay? We believe the mortality rate is probably higher than that. How much higher, I don't know. Until we do a comprehensive tagging review on that it will stay at the 3.4% because that's what came out of that in 2010.

In the P.E.I. fleet sector we were instrumental in doing these guidelines. We worked all winter at doing them. If the guidelines are followed the way they should be followed, and it's two hookups a day or two fight times a day on fish, that will decrease the mortality, too. If a boat goes out there, hooks six fish, and allows his charges to have a blast with six fish instead of what he's allowed, which is two fish, then you're going to have problems. It's like any other fishery and you'll have problems.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much, Bobby. We just have to follow the rules.

[Bobby Jenkins]

That's right.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you, Mr. MacAulay.

Now to Mr. Weston.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

It's great that you're here, Mr. MacPherson and Mr. Jenkins. I have to say that you bring out the most eloquence from our Prince Edward Island member of this committee, and it's great to hear the exchange.

I'm from British Columbia, as well as Mr. Kamp, so I hope you'll forgive some of my ignorance about your local fishery in the questions I ask. I'm going to let you know what my four questions are and we'll see if we can get in your answers.

The first one is, can you tell us what river fishing there is? Are we talking about that at all when we talk about your fishery that you've been discussing? As a British Columbian, when we talk about a recreational fishery we're very much focused on our streams and rivers.

Secondly, I'd be interested in your commenting on what sort of culture is around this? It's very much a known fact that for British Columbians, our fish, our water, our salmon are very much core to our culture. It would be interesting for you to just comment on that.

Thirdly, you touched on this indirectly a little bit. I chair at the British Columbia tourism caucus and I'd be interested to hear what you have to say about how tourism intersects with your fishery. A few minutes ago you were referring a little bit to where people come from.

The fourth thing may be the most controversial. I love your slogan, “The fish must win”. I think that's great. You said at one point, Mr. Jenkins, that DFO should double whatever it is. I'm going to put back to you that it's probably true of any government service. We would all like to do more, but we have to arrange priorities. I'd like you to reflect on that a little bit. How can you say that it should be doubled if you're not even clear what there is already?

I wonder if you'd touch on those four things for us.

[Bobby Jenkins]

Okay, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll respond to that.

What I meant by saying that it should be doubled, Mr. Chairman, is that if conservation and protection boards go aboard a hundred boats a year—and I'm not sure what the figure is for last year—to me, that probably should be doubled. If it was a hundred last year, it probably should be two hundred. Because we have people who are abusing this catch-and-release program, and the only way to stop it is for DFO to show presence on the water, be out there on a daily basis, checking things out, going aboard boats to make sure the guidelines that we have are being followed. That's what I meant by that.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

We had a very interesting statement from the Manitoba recreational fisheries just a few days ago who said that you can't have a police person or an enforcement officer on every boat, on every foot of river, but what you can have is a culture of people who are together themselves doing their best to conserve and enhance the fishery. For me, it was a very refreshing perspective that it's not all on the shoulders of government or the purse of taxpayers, but we have to build up a whole culture of people who are educated about why we're doing the conservation and who will take matters into their own hands, to some extent, in helping to conserve the fishery.

Would you like to comment on that.

[Bobby Jenkins]

If I may, Mr. Chairman, yes, we have commercial fishermen in P.E.I. who have been heavily involved in working with DFO. In particular, I know of fishermen who have offered to take DFO officers out on their boats so they could observe what was going on in relation to the catch-and-release fishery. We do have people who would help.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Do you want to add to that, perhaps, Mr. MacPherson?

[Ian MacPherson]

Just to follow up on what Mr. Jenkins just mentioned—and I understand what you're saying—I think that resources don't tend to be unlimited. They are finite. But because this is a growing and expanding industry, if there are other fisheries in decline or if they're fairly static, then maybe more enforcement needs to be put on the catch-and-release fishery or the tuna fishery because it's a growing sector.

Just to respond to some of your other questions, in our organization we don't have anything to do with the river system so I won't speak to that. You certainly have a beautiful and bountiful system in British Columbia, but different organizations are more involved with that than ours—

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Mr. MacPherson, are you saying that yours are all ocean related?

[Ian MacPherson]

Yes. Inshore or ocean related is the category of our fishery, versus the great big ships out in the far Atlantic.

In terms of the culture, absolutely, the tuna industry did suffer a decline a number of years ago and has bounced back quite significantly, as we alluded to earlier. Certainly, fishing is a big part of the P.E.I. culture. We're known for our lobster and some other things, and certainly we want to have a positive image out there. We want to have a sustainable image out there. We want something that's going to create a future for the young fishers in our communities and on our island.

To address your third point on the intersection with tourism, we're certainly starting to see more of that. I think you will see more coordinated data collection on who our customers are and who are the target markets and whatever. As I mentioned earlier, there was a core group that had probably been keeping their own personal data, but they're starting to operate more as a collective group. That information really helps us, because experiential tourism and culinary tourism are certainly two very significant parts of the P.E.I. landscape, and we would like to see them expand and create jobs and have all the other positive impacts.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

I could imagine that in an ideal world there would be a meeting of the local chamber of commerce, the Prince Edward Island tourism authority, the recreational fishers association, and perhaps the commercial one as well. Is that the kind of thing that happens?

I'm not saying that it necessarily happens to my satisfaction in British Columbia, so please don't feel you're being put on the spot. I'm just trying to get a sense of whether there's a common mind or at least a common group of minds that try to bring these things together, and for the benefit of all of Canada, really, because if we're bringing people to our country who are seeing your beautiful province, predictably they're going to want to come back and perhaps visit other places in the country.

[Ian MacPherson]

Yes, absolutely. Because we're an island, every day that someone stays here longer—I guess it's like any other destination in Canada—has a significant positive impact.

Although it's more of a provincial initiative, one of the good examples of that is provincial tuna cup that we have every fall. Teams enter from all over the world. Every year it gets bigger and better. There's a lot of repeat business, but people are also hearing about it through social media. Those are the types of things that we want to see grow. It helps everyone, because it's a huge shot in the arm for the economy.