Evidence of meeting #49 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fish.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Blaine James  As an Individual
Lester Wood  President, Margaree Salmon Association
Bill Haley  Vice-President, Margaree Salmon Association

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Thank you for those comments.

You also referred to two initiatives, one related to I think the striped bass or the fragmented season and the other to the Wild Salmon Unlimited proposal about taking into account the predators. What I thought was interesting wasn't so much the conclusion—I know you were unhappy with the conclusion—but the obvious partnership that is engaged there, with DFO people and recreational fishers talking to each other.

Do you want to comment on that relationship? We've seen that theme in Swan River, Manitoba, and in British Columbia and across the country.

11:40 a.m.

Vice-President, Margaree Salmon Association

Bill Haley

Yes, certainly. The meeting was called by Leroy MacEachern from the Antigonish DFO office. He called a number of interest groups. As far as I know, all who were called did attend.

I've already mentioned who was there, but I think that having the recreational and commercial people and the first nations there in one room, all speaking and trying to come to a consensus on this particular problem, says a lot. It's no longer just the recreational people who have one perspective or one point of view. I think we're all on the same page when it comes to dealing with things such as the threat of striped bass, and we can move forward on a united front and try to convince DFO to take the appropriate action.

Now, my frustration isn't that DFO didn't take action. They've increased the number of days that you can retain a striped bass by seven over last year. My comment—and again, it is a criticism—is that it's putting together very critical or very fragmented periods of time when you can fish. You can fish three days in September and you can fish eleven days in May. It would be much simpler—

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Mr. Haley, if I can interrupt, we understood the nature of the criticism, but I was intrigued about the partnership and the relationship. The fact that the parties are talking to one another I think is very valuable. It doesn't mean that you get the answer you want, but obviously there's a listening ear, and hopefully that will continue.

If I can just touch on the investment you mentioned, I was with the minister when she announced the $57 million in B.C. last week, but in the same week, I noticed that there was a $40-million investment in coast guards located in Newfoundland, so I would encourage you to look over time at the investments and the attempt to consolidate resources to make them more effective. Otherwise, what I find is that my constituents in British Columbia will be upset about what is announced tomorrow if they look only at that day in time, not at the trend.

I think there's a genuine attempt by this minister to listen to people like the three of you and people who care about recreational fisheries across the country. I think she really gets it, and it's important to look at the overall trend in investment, not just a one-off.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you, Mr. Weston.

Mr. MacAulay.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, gentlemen. Thank you for your contribution to this committee. We want to hear it.

Mr. Haley, I'd like you to comment on the striped bass, on the times you can fish and not fish and what a problem that creates. When you're responding, I also would like you to touch on enforcement and the need for enforcement. We need to have fishers out there who are concerned, but we need enforcement too.

I just want you to elaborate on those areas, because the committee wants to know.

11:45 a.m.

Vice-President, Margaree Salmon Association

Bill Haley

I can tell you about the complexities of the regulations for recreational fishing.

Let's say you were fishing in the Margaree River. I don't know if anybody is that familiar with the Margaree River, but you could be fishing in a pool in the river that has a tributary entering it. If you caught a trout in the pool that was 14 inches, you could retain it. If you were standing 10 feet over and happened to catch that trout at the mouth of the brook, you would have to release it. If you caught five trout in that pool, that would be your limit for the day. If you went over 10 feet and caught three trout in that brook, you would be finished for the day. So you could be 20 feet over from the fellow next to you and different rules would apply.

In terms of enforcement, we have fewer and fewer enforcement officers, as far as I can see. I do know there's recruitment going on, but when we had the meeting in January, it was Leroy MacEachern who mentioned to me that he used to have a staff of 17, I think, and now he has a staff of maybe seven. There certainly have been cutbacks and cutbacks. For the enforcement officers we do have, the majority of their time seems to be taken up looking after commercial fishing. We see them on our river mostly after the lobster fishery has closed and the crab fishery has closed. Usually late in the fall we'll have some visible fisheries officers on our rivers.

Apart from that, as I mentioned, we have four fisheries officers in Cheticamp who would have their hands full just to look after the commercial fishery, let alone recreational.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

Basically we're short of manpower in the enforcement area. The committee needs to know that.

I'd also like you to comment on the predators, such as the cormorants, and what can be done. I represent an area in eastern Prince Edward Island—I hope I also get a chance to talk to Mr. James on the tuna—and the commercial fishermen are upset about those predators too. Is there any suggestion or recommendation to the committee? It's like the seals and the cormorants eat all the fish, and we're such a good society we can't do anything about it.

11:45 a.m.

Vice-President, Margaree Salmon Association

Bill Haley

Well, I think man is a top predator there as well. Look at Atlantic salmon in particular. Just stop and look at the data that the new committee is looking about what's happening in Iceland, Quebec, and in Saint-Pierre and Miquelon. Tonnes and tonnes of Atlantic salmon are being harvested that either don't make it to our shores or are being retained for the wrong reason, in my opinion.

With regard to seabirds, just look at yesterday's announcement in Oregon. They have 15,000 cormorants at the mouth of the Columbia River. They will be culling 10,000 over the next two years. They've gone through the court process, the complaint process, and the appeal process, and they're going ahead with it. The marine corps will take out 10,000 cormorants from the mouth of the river.

Scientifically, they say, that will allow 11 million more salmon to breed in that river, because the smolts that come down the river are eaten by the cormorants. What can I say? We could do something similar, but I don't feel we have the political will. We don't have the science to back it up, either. To this day, I haven't heard a scientist who's working for the government get on a news report and say “Yes, the seals are eating all of our fish.” But they are. You know, they're eating something....

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

Thank you very much, Mr. Haley.

Scientists aren't on the news much lately anyhow, I guess. We're not sure why, but they seem to be not on the news very much. A lot of us would like to hear from the scientists.

Mr. James, you mentioned your tuna fishery and what you're doing with the IWK. That was very interesting. It's fabulous work. As you know, I represent eastern P.E.I., and North Lake is in my area. You know all about it. We have a recreational tuna fishery too.

I'd like you to elaborate a bit on your shark fishery and also, if you have time, these other species in terms of 75 to 100 kilometres or miles offshore. With regard to this kind of stuff, these billionaires coming from all over the world have the money, and it's so important to the economy of these areas. Please elaborate on it. The committee needs to know it.

11:50 a.m.

As an Individual

Blaine James

Thank you very much.

It's nice seeing you again. You were an old neighbour of mine on P.E.I. Anyway, I'm one of the Jameses of the Church Road.

Saying that, I applaud anyone who would like to come onside with this new species. This is a new fishery. It's not very often that we get an opportunity to open a new fishery in Canada. These fish have gone by our shores long before any of us walked on this earth. To this point, no one has ever touched them because they're not really desirable eating fish. But it's not the idea of eating the fish; it's the idea of the catching of these fish. People go south, to Mexico, Hawaii, and down to the tip of the Baja for these large pelagics. Anywhere at all these fish are found in numbers, you will find there is a huge recreation-based fishery.

I suggest that this certainly is a real, 100% possibility for us here in Nova Scotia. It's an untouched industry. It's never been touched, so the fish are still there, other than the fish that are being caught as bycatch on the longline fleet. They're certainly not targeting those species. It just happens that they're catching these species in the area where they fish. To me, that is not an unattainable area to reach from Nova Scotia—and that's from the Canso Causeway, down as far as Liverpool, or whatever, or Yarmouth, because it's even closer to the Gulf Stream in these areas than Halifax is. But Halifax has such a big base of hotels, restaurants, and so on; it's the main city for the province. It certainly would be a good spot, with all the yacht clubs and so on, to run such a fishery or start an expanded marine fishery from here.

The upside is that it would be not millions but billions of dollars to this province. That is what it really means. The recreational fishery, as everyone well knows, is certainly in the billions. It's not in the millions. It's billions of dollars to other countries, and we can have the same thing here. We're just not doing it.

Getting back to your comment on the recreational tuna, that is something that was never allowed. We were the first consortium of people to apply for such a licence. As I told you, it took about a year and a half, through the ALPAC and all those organizations, to have it approved. It was based upon it being a tournament to bring in other countries and promote our country, promote our fishing, and so on. It was a marriage of the commercial fleet and the recreational fleet, because we also need the commercial guides. They have the boats, the will, the rods, where a lot of the recreational people do not. Since the conception of this tournament in 1998, there are a lot of recreational boats here in the city, and other places through the province, that also have these rods and reels, and are getting quite good at it. We promote that as a mainstay, and we look forward to adding to that with these new species.

I know it's something that no one's ever discussed. I've thought long about this meeting, and it is probably the most important thing to our province: to reach out and to try, even with an exploratory licence through Fisheries and Oceans, and of course with scientists. Without them, you're nothing. You need everyone together as a whole, and you need to explore this even if it's a year or two years of an experimental thing, to actually see what numbers are going to be there, at what times of the year. We may look at opening a licence for that. There's work to be done, but I'm throwing it on the table because it is a very viable industry, and it's something that Canada has not....

Canada really has salmon on both coasts, and some halibut. That's another thing that also could be catch-and-release. Sport fishermen do not care about killing animals. They care about catching and releasing them for the greater whole. The thing is, we support that. We just want to be on the water and to have the opportunity to catch these wonderful species and to release them live so they can come back with others.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

Thank you very much. Being from Midgell, I appreciate you, Mr. James, and your input.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you very much, Mr. MacAulay.

Now we'll go to Mr. Sopuck.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

I assume the bells are going to start fairly soon.

To Mr. Wood and Mr. Haley, I don't think you should be so pessimistic about the opportunities to control predators. As the federal government, we're actually doing wolf control in British Columbia right now to protect woodland caribou. Again, we produced a report in the fisheries committee a few years ago on snow crab, and it was a unanimous report by all parties that some kind of seal reduction program should be put in place to improve snow crab recruitment. So I don't think the system is as bad as you might think. I think there's a greater appetite for this than many people appreciate.

Mr. James, in terms of the time you've spent out there, you expressed great concern about sharks. But how are the stocks of marlin, dorado, and swordfish doing? Are they all quite abundant?

11:55 a.m.

As an Individual

Blaine James

They still are, in a large number of areas. In certain areas, such as Hawaii, they probably have lost more species for some other, unknown reasons. As we all know, our oceans are not as well as they used to be. There are some other issues with that.

In terms of the population in this part of the world, it's been untouched. These fish have been able to come and go here as they please for hundreds of thousands of years—or for however long fish have been here. There have never been licences to catch or release or retain them in any commercial value. Again, it's mostly recreational value. The value of the recreational fishery will outweigh 100 to one the commercial value of the fish, so we are certainly believers in catch and release. I'm certainly a believer that these fish can be attained at an optimum time. I still say that we need to do some more research on the time we should be harvesting those—or not even harvesting them, but actually catching and releasing them—or for when a recreational licence should be permitted.

Basically, I think this fishery is a strong fishery. I believe it can be sustained through science and with good-minded anglers. I personally believe that anything that can be released live certainly will come back and pay the country and yourselves many times over. One fish released live is worth 10 or 20 on the wharf. That is a fact when it comes to sport fishing.

As well, these species that I'm talking about are world-sought. They're not sought just here or Mexico or Florida, but people around the world are seeking out these species. We have them here, and we're not even doing it. It's a brand new thing we could be doing that would certainly go down in history as a money-maker for our country and put us on the world stage as one of the premium places to go to catch these species.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

Great. Thanks. Your enthusiasm is commendable. I will probably be one of your first customers.

As an avid angler myself, I'd like to ask about the Margaree. What's the size of the run in the Margaree? Do we have a reasonable estimate of the Atlantic salmon run?

11:55 a.m.

Vice-President, Margaree Salmon Association

Bill Haley

Depending on the year, it's somewhere between 3,000 and 5,000 fish. In an exceptional year, such as 1996, I think, we had 5,600 fish. That's all; we have a small run.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

You're at roughly 3,000 fish now. Is that correct?

11:55 a.m.

Vice-President, Margaree Salmon Association

Bill Haley

Probably.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

Just getting back to the issue of predation by the mergansers and cormorants, has anybody ever done a literature search on the stomach contents of mergansers and cormorants? Are they primarily feeding on salmon parr and smolts when they're in the stream?

11:55 a.m.

Vice-President, Margaree Salmon Association

Bill Haley

Most of the research I've seen was done in Europe. I haven't seen any research done on the east coast of Canada.

Many places in Scotland and England have programs where they cull cormorants on an annual basis. You have to do it in an organized fashion. You decide the maximum population that a river can sustain, and every year you reduce the number to that.

But no, with regard to stomach contents, I'm not aware of that being done in Canada.

Noon

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

It does stand to reason that they are major predators of salmon.

I was very interested in your report about Oregon, where they plan to take out 10,000 birds. It's a fairly robust analysis, then, that they estimate another 11 million salmon will survive?

Noon

Vice-President, Margaree Salmon Association

Bill Haley

That's based on their science, yes. That was in the paper yesterday.

Noon

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

I'll have to look that paper up. I find that very interesting.

Actually, there were cormorant culls in Canada in the past, I think in Ontario and Quebec, that were fairly small. Being on the fisheries committee, we do hear on a regular basis the need for predator control to improve recruitment.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

I'm sorry, I have to interrupt here, gentlemen. The bells are ringing, calling members for a vote.

As per the standing rules of the House, the committee must suspend at this point in time. Actually, this committee will adjourn at this point in time.

I want to take a moment to thank you gentlemen for taking the time today to present to the committee and to answer questions from our members. We certainly do appreciate it.

Again, I apologize for having to cut this short.

This committee now stands adjourned.