Fisheries Committee on June 2nd, 2015

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

I'll call this meeting to order.

I'd like to thank our guests for joining us here today. We certainly do appreciate your taking the time out of your schedules to appear before our committee to make some remarks and also to answer questions that committee members might have for you following those remarks.

I would ask that you try to keep your responses as concise as possible when responding to committee members. They're constrained by time limits, so if you could try to respect that as much as possible, we certainly would appreciate it.

I assume the clerk has advised you that we generally allow about 10 minutes for opening remarks and comments. Outside of that, I think we're ready to proceed.

Mr. Samson, I believe you're going to go first. I understand that you have to leave partway through our meeting. We appreciate your being here today and giving us what time you can.

Mr. Samson, whenever you want to proceed, the floor is yours.

[Ward Samson, Past President, Newfoundland and Labrador Wildlife Federation]

Thank you.

Can everybody hear me? I'd like to say good morning to some and good afternoon to others. I think you can hear me. Can anybody acknowledge that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Yes, we can. We can hear you fine, Mr. Samson.

[Ward Samson]

Okay. My understanding of the purpose today is to take a look at what we call recreational fishing in Canada. In Newfoundland, the Canadian government has labelled recreational groundfishing as recreation. I'd like to remind the rest of Canada that it's not necessarily recreation. We're dealing with food.

Right now we can take five fish per day. We'd like to see that increased. We don't want to see any tags, increasing the time limit, increasing the boat limit, or whatever.

For many years what we've been doing is, in September mostly, when the fishing is reasonably good and they're not on the bottom—uncluttered, as we call it in Newfoundland—we will go out and catch fish. If we took 50 in one day, that was fine. If we took 60, that was fine also, because we kept some for ourselves to salt for the winter and some we gave away. With five fish a day and the cost of gas, we can't give any away. So the older people in our province who would like to have fish [Technical Difficulty—Editor]

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

I guess we have some technical difficulties. We've lost Mr. Samson.

Mr. Fordham, would you like to start with your remarks?

[Ward Samson]

Am I still here?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

He's still there. Sorry. We lost the video of you. There you are.

You're back, Mr. Samson. Please proceed.

[Ward Samson]

Thank you.

What I was saying is that we don't necessarily want a recreational fishery here. It's a food fishery. We do this for food. It's the same with respect to anything we hunt and fish in Newfoundland. It's done for food. I know this is called recreational, but we basically still hunt and fish for food. At least the people I represent do.

The cod fishery is like five tags per day, but for the length of the season, it's just not practical anymore. In our inland cod fishery, the number of cod that Newfoundlanders take out of the ocean is extremely limited.

We never ever sell codfish, never. What I'm suggesting to Ottawa, and to the powers that be, is that if someone is caught selling a codfish, you basically charge them. It's simple. We don't do that.

With respect to salmon, currently this is the only province in Atlantic Canada and Quebec where you can keep an Atlantic salmon to eat. We don't necessarily hook and release. Hook and release kills fish. They may survive the hooking and they may survive the releasing initially, but afterwards they die. If you hook and release fish, right now we have four fish per day that we can hook and release. Actually in some cases it's six fish. I can retain two and release four. New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island have hook and release only for salmon.

Our position is that if we can't hook and keep a salmon, then close the rivers. If the rivers are in that bad a shape and you can't retain a salmon to eat, then close it, period, no ifs, ands or buts. I have read in numerous studies that sometimes small fish, if they're caught within a small timeframe, can be released and some of them do survive. There's a website that shows you how to release salmon and that salmon can be released. It may go to the spawning grounds, but does it spawn? I have not seen any study that shows me that a released salmon will spawn when it goes to the spawning bed.

Newfoundland and Labrador Wildlife Federation will never support hook and release of salmon. Now, we have four tags on some rivers, and some rivers two. The river I fish has four tags. I've caught a lot of salmon in my day. I've been fishing since I was 11 years old. Four tags, I can live with that. We would like to have not an additional tag, but we would like to have probably a tag with a colour that's provincial. I know that's provincial now and you get jurisdictions mangled across the board. We would like to have an extra tag that can be put on a large fish but is interchangeable. If you don't use it for a fish over 63 centimetres, then you can use it for a fish under 63 centimetres. That's where we're coming from, fishing for fun. Initially, catching a salmon, hooking a salmon is fun. Landing a salmon is not a big deal.

I'll tell you now that I've been fishing since I was 11 years old. I can stand in the river and I can hook and release all day. Nobody will charge me with anything if I use a barbless hook. I can use a smaller leader. I can let the fish go. The fish can escape from me, no problem. I can hook all day and release salmon all day. It is not enforceable. Hooking and releasing salmon is not enforceable. Catching four fish a day, again I'll tell you, is not enforceable.

We've already asked for two licences, the way it is in Quebec, a hook-and-release licence and a hook-and-retain licence like the one we already have, but again, there's provincial jurisdiction. Nobody is willing to accept that. We're willing to go that far and see how many people would take up a hook and release licence. If salmon fishermen out there believe so much in hook and release, then give them a hook-and-release licence. Ask them to buy one and make it cheaper, if you want. There won't be any tags involved.

Seals eat salmon. I worked with DFO for a number of years. Seals do eat salmon, not necessarily in tremendous amounts, but they do eat salmon, and we do have a salmon fishery off the south coast, the only section of the south coast where COSEWIC has determined that the salmon is in dire straits.

Also on the south coast we do have aquaculture of wild Atlantic salmon, open-pen aquaculture. It has been proven that closed-pen aquaculture can be done. It may be a little more expensive but it can be done. From B.C. the fish are on the market. People are buying them. Closed containment salmon farming can be done. Just recently, the Newfoundland government, which monitors aquaculture on the south coast, gave an exorbitant amount of money to increase the production of open-pen fish farming on the south coast. We are suggesting that we have feasibility studies and pilot projects on closed containment on land. We can do those on the south coast. We can do them inland and we have a pilot project to do the same.

It is not rocket science. It is already done, yet we're pouring an exorbitant amount of money into open-pen farming and, guys, it doesn't work. Those fish are diseased. Also, you don't need any money. Basically, if the fish are diseased—they get ISA, which is a salmon disease—the federal government takes the salmon, kills the salmon, and gives you some money. So you're not losing anything. You don't lose anything.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Mr. Samson, I have to ask you to conclude at this point.

[Ward Samson]

Yes, thank you. That'll be my conclusion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you very much, Mr. Samson.

Mr. Fordham, the floor is yours, sir.

[Barry Fordham, Public Relations Officer, Newfoundland Federation of Hunters and Anglers]

Good day, Mr. Chair, and members of the committee. My name is Barry Fordham. I represent the Newfoundland Federation of Hunters and Anglers. I'm a co-founder and public relations officer of this group. I feel both very honoured and privileged to have this opportunity to speak to you today about the recreational food fishery and representing my province, Newfoundland and Labrador.

Here in this great province of Newfoundland and Labrador the cod fishery represents a traditional way of life that keeps us tied to our historical roots. Our once abundant cod fishery supported a large rural population province-wide. Residents and their communities were independent and economically secure.

Cod has and always will be an important traditional food source to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. Fishers are not simply catching fish for recreation, they are carefully processing it as part of their traditional winter food supply.

The cod fishery is also important because it provides a cultural bridge to pass on history, names, stories, events, and skills we feel are important for our youth to learn. They can share this knowledge with their kids, which will ensure our historical legacy is passed on generationally and never forgotten. You might say, “Forgotten? A crazy idea. That's absurd.” We feel this can be the case.

The example I will use is the commercial inshore fishery. Before the moratorium, the inshore fishery was mostly a family-based operation, where sons would fish with their fathers and grandfathers, and learn all the skills necessary to have the experience to strike out on their own. They were then able to teach their sons, thus ensuring the knowledge and skills were being passed down.

The inshore fishery has been closed now for almost 23 years. There has been a huge lapse of time that has passed, and at least three generations or more of experience, knowledge, and skills may have been lost to the point that if the commercial inshore fishery were reopened today, there may not be enough people to participate in it because of the loss of knowledge or interest.

After the moratorium was announced, in 1992, a black cloud of uncertainty fell over rural Newfoundland and Labrador. The federal government provided the fishers with monetary assistance for a period of time, but eventually people got restless and they began the emigration process for employment and a new life. Our once vibrant communities were beginning to become like ghost towns in some areas.

Then DFO announced a recreational food fishery for codfish, with laws and regulations such as dates and bag limits. There was a period of time when licences and tags were the system for a number of years, but this was eventually abandoned.

During the recreational food fishery, there is a high percentage of our population that participates in it. Our once seemingly ghost towns become vibrant once again. Old friends meet at the local wharves and there's hustle and bustle. Kids are listening intently to old stories, learning new skills, such as how to catch and process the fish, and making new friends. People are now planning their annual family vacations around these dates. Local businesses are profiting. It's attracting tourists in droves. Commercial fishers, whom we have the utmost respect for, are benefiting by taking tourists and locals alike out to their fishing grounds. This provides a huge economic boost to the provincial economy annually, especially at the gas pumps and local sporting goods stores.

One of the biggest obstacles to fishing in Newfoundland and Labrador is the weather, namely the high winds and seas that accompany them. It's so windy in Newfoundland and Labrador that it's a wonder we're not referred to as the Chicago province of Canada. This unsavoury weather cancels our fishing trips, which then results in a lost opportunity. Our fall season last year, for example, was a bust for the most part because of high winds, even though there was an extension to the season granted for a few days.

Our season this year is set to commence on July 18 until August 9, and then on September 19 until September 27, for a total of four weeks plus two days. The bag limit is five cod per person per day, with a maximum boat limit of 15 cod. Retention of mackerel does not affect our bag limit.

In some Quebec and maritime jurisdictions, the season length is open four, five, or six weeks that run concurrently. The bag limit is 15 groundfish per person per day. It is important to note that not more than five in this limit can be cod.

As well, there is a shoreline recreational season in the southern gulf region with a zero cod retention, but mackerel can be retained. This means if you fish from a boat, you can be no further than 50 metres from the shore. If you are fishing from the shoreline, most likely with a rod and reel, you cannot catch further than 50 metres. Good luck with that one.

The season opened this year from April 15 until October 4, for a total of 172 days. We, the Newfoundland Federation of Hunters and Anglers, want the season length extended and combined for several different reasons, keeping in mind that most people work Monday to Friday and may only have a Saturday or Sunday to participate.

The first and most important reason is safety. As I have stated, the weather plays a major factor here in Newfoundland and Labrador. Fishers are sometimes taking risks by journeying out in questionable weather conditions because of the lack of time. Some fishers are travelling out in sometimes questionable watercraft, which is an additional safety risk. There have been drowning fatalities during the recreational food fishery annually, as reported by the media.

Next, it reduces the opportunities that a fisher has, because not everybody has a boat these days. I can go see a friend who has just returned from fishing and ask if he can take my son and me out fishing. If he says he has another commitment, that results in another lost opportunity.

We also want the season extended and combined to give us equality, to make it similar to Quebec and the Maritimes. I'm not attempting to take anything away from them, but why can't our seasons at least run concurrent, like theirs do?

We would also like to see the shoreline recreational fishery in the southern gulf region introduced in Newfoundland and Labrador with the same zero cod-retention limit during the closed portion of the Newfoundland and Labrador recreational food fishery season. As lads growing up in an outport community, we were always fishing on the rocks or off the wharf. This was a favourite pastime. We learned fishing skills, how to tie a knot and catch and release a fish. We learned life skills and forged friendships. We have memories that will last a lifetime. We would like our youth to have that same privilege to experience what we did when we were young. If you were to walk on most wharves today, you might not even see a youth with a fishing rod. They're not allowed to fish during the closed season of the recreational food fishery.

That, gentlemen, is beyond ridiculous. We feel that by not having this season, our kids are missing out on one of nature's finest experiences.

The short season, factored in with time lost due to the weather, adds the extra pressure to get out for a few days to get the required five fish for the day. For my family's needs, we require approximately 40 cod. If I go solo, it would take me at least eight successful days. I may not be lucky enough; once again, it comes down to time, weather, and opportunity. Unless I have my own boat, I may not even be able to get enough fish to put away for my winter food supply, which is important to my family.

We firmly believe that by extending and combining the season, we would not witness an increase in fishers or days fished. Usually at the beginning of each season there is the traditional big rush. But fishers would get accustomed to the new season. We could choose the time that is safe and convenient for us instead of feeling rushed to get out fishing or to take chances on the weather.

As for claims of people catching too much fish if the season is extended, a recent report indicates that in the 2014 recreational food fishery, the total catch was approximately 1,500 tonnes. Compare that with the total overall catch of approximately 11,000 tonnes. Our own provincial government, through its own news releases, has petitioned DFO about the unfair treatment of Newfoundland and Labrador compared with our sister provinces concerning the recreational food fishery, to no avail. Federal fisheries minister Gail Shea, when interviewed on CBC's Here and Now—Newfoundland and Labrador the day before the 2014 recreational food fishery, admitted that she would be open to discussing ways to make the recreational food fishery safer.

I hope that both Minister Shea and you, this committee, are listening now. The time is long past due and the present is here. Now is the time to make things right for the future. This important decision could prevent another drowning fatality this year. As this is the last year of the 2013 to 2015 DFO management plan, grant us this extended combined season with the same bag limit that we have always had. Next year we can sit at the table and iron out an agreement that is acceptable, respectable, and makes common sense. Do this for our safety, our success, our heritage, our historical legacy, and for the respect that Newfoundland and Labrador deserves in our place in Canada, our country.

If I have any time left over I'd like to address an issue on the recreational salmon fishery here as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Very quickly, Mr. Fordham.

[Barry Fordham]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Very quickly, indeed.

First of all, I'd like to say that the Newfoundland Federation of Hunters and Anglers supports catch-and-release here in the province of Newfoundland and Labrador. We also support retentions for other fish for the table.

I want to say a couple of words about catch-and-release. Catch-and-release does not have a high mortality rate. It is a common practice here in Newfoundland and Labrador now. It is the way for the future if the stocks are going to be conserved. Closing the rivers is not an option because it takes legitimate fishers off the rivers and then opens the door for unsavoury characters or poachers to go in and deplete the stocks further.

I have been a fishing guide in Labrador on one of the most famous rivers, Eagle River. I saw thousands of fish released over the years that I was working there and did not witness a high mortality rate. So catch-and-release, we think, does not have a high mortality rate when practised properly.

Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak here today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you very much, Mr. Fordham.

Now we'll move into the question and answer period.

We'll start off with Mr. Cleary.

[Ryan Cleary, NDP, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Thank you to the witnesses.

I remember back in 1992 when John Crosbie shut down the northern cod fishery. I was a journalist at the time, and one of the questions he was asked was whether or not, after the commercial fishing moratorium, Newfoundlanders and Labradorians would still be able to fish for their tables. His response is one that I haven't forgotten. What he said was that if the day came that Newfoundlanders and Labradorians couldn't fish for their table, couldn't fish for their supper, the cod stock would be beyond saving.

The day came when Newfoundlanders and Labradorians were restricted from cod fishing for their tables, but now we can fish. But as you've both outlined, the recreational or food fishery—although I think you're both leaning towards the words “food fishery”—is restricted to a narrow period of time.

Gentlemen, what I can gather from both of you is that there are safety concerns in terms of limitations on when you can fish, and there are also food security concerns. Then there are also cultural concerns in terms of passing on fishing knowledge to future generations.

The bottom line on cod stocks is that they are still delicate. Mr. Samson, you brought up the fact that you don't believe in tags, and we don't have a tag system right now. I understand from my last estimate that 1,500 tonnes were caught in the food fishery last year, and 11,000 tonnes were caught overall between the food fishery and the commercial fishery, which pales in comparison to the 1.1 million tonnes of Atlantic cod that were taken from everywhere across the Atlantic and off the coast of Canada.

The question for both of you is this. Unless you keep track of what's being caught, how do you know what's being taken? Again, cod stocks are in a delicate shape. How would you both respond to that?

[Barry Fordham]

I'll let Mr. Samson answer first.

[Ward Samson]

Thank you.

We send out tags, but I do understand your question, Mr. Cleary. Most of us would not participate in this fishery for food basically until September. I think that if you're from Newfoundland you understand that people are not going to go for the food fishery basically until September. June, July, and August are for small gillnet fish or trap fish, and they're basically glutted, and they're pretty watery if you dry them.

With respect to tags, I'll have to take it back to the board to see, but I think we can manage to live with that, but not tags per day, or per boat.

If you were willing to grant maybe 40 or 50 tags to individuals, and if they could capture those in one day.... Because where I'm from, and where Barry is from we go out and we capture 20 or 30 fish, say. Now we're only permitted to take five. People are high-grading. If you don't catch a fish that's basically a certain length or weight, they're high-grading, and they're going to leave it.

[Ryan Cleary, NDP, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Mr. Samson, I'm sorry to interrupt. I'm moving to Barry now because I have limited time.

Barry.

[Barry Fordham]

Mr. Chairman, in response to the member, I would like to say that our inshore stocks for the past number of years have seemed to be in very good shape. I'm not sure about the offshore stocks, but it does seem that the inshore have certainly rebounded.

As for conservation measures, which is what we'd like to see, we need to keep better track of things other than simply dockside monitoring. I'd like to call it the food fishery as well, even though the study's on the recreational fishery in Canada. Through participation, we have people themselves with eyes and ears out there on the water.

To further promote the conservation, there should be some kind of size limitation developed for the fish. As well, each fisher should have a logbook filled out with pertinent information on their daily activities, the number of fish caught, what they've seen, different species, catch-and-release, etc., which would then give the Department of Fisheries and Oceans extra valuable information which they normally would never have in the first place from people who are right there with their eyes and ears on the water itself.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I have a question for both of you. I know there's a lot of discussion about the recreational versus food fishery. You both have talked about the food fishery side of it but, of course, there is a combination of people who engage in this program, some purely recreational, whether it be tourism-related or, as you talked about, families getting together. You seem to be talking about a more serious thing. Both of you mentioned 40 or 50 fish for your winter supply. In your case, Mr. Samson, you said September fish are the ones that are best for food.

Would you be able to guesstimate either what percentage or how many in Newfoundland and Labrador participate in the way you both talk about, in terms of a food fishery, a winter food supply, hoping to get 40 or 50 fish to put away some and, obviously, eat some and have some for the table? It seems to me that if you're talking about a food fishery, that may be a different system, and tags may be inevitable if you're talking about a quantity of that nature.

[Ward Samson]

Jack, who would you like to have answer the question?

Barry, I answered last, so you go first this time.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Anybody can go ahead, whoever wants to go first.

[Barry Fordham]

Mr. Chairman, in response to the member, the study here today is the recreational food fishery, although we like it here to be referred to as the food fishery itself.

As for the number of fish, that would vary from person to person and family to family. Some people may only want to go out and have one meal of fish per year. Others require more. Speaking on my own behalf and my family's, we have fish processed and frozen in the freezer to eat once every two weeks throughout the year.

We're not fishing for recreation. Some are, but most aren't. Most are fishing for food.

Thank you.

[Ward Samson]

I'd like to respond to that and agree with Barry. Most people are fishing for food. They're not fishing for recreation.

I salt some of my fish—still do. It's not necessarily healthy, but I do salt some of my fish and I leave them for the winter, and we have some fish in the fridge.

We're not asking for an exorbitant amount. For most of the people in Newfoundland.... You know, if you ask Newfoundlanders if they're going to give you anything, they'll basically tell you...if you ask fishers, obviously, most of them, the majority, 95% are going to tell you the truth.

Right now, it's mind-boggling. You can't simply go out in a boat and catch your fish. You have five fish per day, 50 per boat. We had a process years ago. We got rid of the tags.

I understand a monitoring system to some degree, but most people are going to tell you the truth. They're not going to tell you....

I'm saying that if people are out there catching codfish and selling codfish, DFO should basically mandate their employees to charge them. You don't sell fish. You catch fish. You eat fish. You keep fish for the winter. Some you salt, and some you freeze, and some you put in the fridge. It's not a lot. For me, it's 40 or 50 fish, maximum.