Evidence of meeting #117 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was whales.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:40 p.m.
Mr. Ken McDonald (Avalon, Lib.)
You are now.
Going back to the Conservative side, Mr. Arnold, I believe you're sharing your time with Mr. Calkins.
4:40 p.m.
Mr. Ken McDonald (Avalon, Lib.)
When you're ready, you have five minutes or less.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Auditor Gelfand, thank you for being here. In our discussions the other day when you were here talking about your actual audit, we discussed the limited scope of your audit—what you check for, and so on. I think we've exposed during our questioning during this study that there are a lot more issues that were beyond the scope of your audit.
Would you tend to agree, from what you've heard today, that there is certainly more that needs to be looked at in the way of auditing what's being done to protect whales on both coasts?
4:40 p.m.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
What we found in our audit was that prior to those whales being found dead in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, there were tools available and that Canada wasn't really using those tools to protect marine mammals.
Since the time that those whales were found dead in 2017, we found that the department has, I want to say, kicked into gear. There's a lot more activity going on; however, we did not audit that. We mentioned all those activities in our audit, but because they've just happened recently, in the last couple of years, we weren't able to audit the effectiveness or to actually audit them. All we could do is say they are occurring.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
You also weren't able to audit the other aspects affecting the killer whales on the west coast, such as prey availability and competitive predators and so on.
4:40 p.m.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
That's correct. We were looking at species at risk. We were looking at the threats based on commercial fisheries and vessels.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Thank you. I'll pass the rest of my time to Mr. Calkins.
4:40 p.m.
Red Deer—Lacombe, CPC
Thank you, Chair.
I'll get a quick point of clarification from Mr. Morel, if I can.
When we were talking about the emergency protection order issue, you said that the minister hasn't decided when, so that tells me that it's a matter of “when” and not a matter of “if”. Can you confirm that this is true?
4:40 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Aquatic Ecosystems Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
What I referred to is that the Species at Risk Act does mention that when the minister finds there's an imminent threat and he feels there are no measures to address that imminent threat, he has to recommend to cabinet an emergency order, and then cabinet has to decide.
That's the process in the act.
4:45 p.m.
Red Deer—Lacombe, CPC
So it's not a matter of “when”. It's still a matter of “if”.
4:45 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Aquatic Ecosystems Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
No, it's a matter of “when”.
4:45 p.m.
Red Deer—Lacombe, CPC
It's a matter of “when”. Thank you.
I have a question for you. Some of the witnesses who appeared before the committee testified that the last time the southern resident killer whale population increased significantly was in the nineties. Is that true?
4:45 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Aquatic Ecosystems Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I think so.
4:45 p.m.
Red Deer—Lacombe, CPC
They also made reference to the fact that in the nineties the hatchery program in British Columbia was churning out about five to 10 times as many salmon as the current hatchery programs, which DFO operates in conjunction with partners, is churning out today. Would that be roughly true?
4:45 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Aquatic Ecosystems Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I don't have that information. I think the hatchery program also compensates for the low returns and may produce other sorts of fish when the returns are higher, so it's not a black and white answer that we can provide.
4:45 p.m.
Red Deer—Lacombe, CPC
No, I understand. I understand.
Many people who have spoken to me about this issue have told me that it's not just the number of pinnipeds that are present in the coastal regions right now that are affecting salmon populations, but it's actually where they are. The people from the salmon enhancement program and the various hatcheries that the salmon enhancement program works with have indicated to me, in conversations that I've had with them, that the pinnipeds are actually now moving well up into fresh water in order to eat these juvenile salmon.
Does the department have any information to substantiate that?
4:45 p.m.
Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Harbour Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I don't have any specific information around that. I'm not aware whether that's the case or not.
4:45 p.m.
Red Deer—Lacombe, CPC
Is it fair to say that the transient killer whale population that would feed on the pinnipeds would go up freshwater estuaries to look for pinnipeds or go up that far?
4:45 p.m.
Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Harbour Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I don't think so.
4:45 p.m.
Red Deer—Lacombe, CPC
I don't think so either.
I think Mr. Masse also asked you this question. I don't mean to belabour the issue, but could you give the committee any indication of how much of the new funding that was announced yesterday might be allocated to fishery enhancements through hatcheries?
I know that Mr. Hardie alluded to this. I think Omega Pacific is the name of the hatchery on Vancouver Island that is basically sitting there waiting for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans to purchase the 200,000 salmon that they have ready to release. I don't really know if orcas care if they come from the Fraser River or a river on Vancouver Island; they just want chinook salmon to eat.
In the past, the department has purchased salmon from that hatchery, which is sitting there waiting right now to sell them. Why is it not having any luck selling them to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans?
4:45 p.m.
Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Harbour Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I don't know the specifics of the case and the hatchery that you're referring to. I can tell you—I think I referenced it earlier—that the investment announced yesterday related to an increase of 30,000 adult chinook, and that was half a million dollars a year, and that would represent an estimated hatchery augmentation of about a million juveniles, starting in 2019.
4:45 p.m.
Mr. Ken McDonald (Avalon, Lib.)
Thank you, Mr. Calkins.
We'll now go to Mr. Masse for five minutes or less.
4:45 p.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'm just going to follow up on this. You can't provide any real details on the costing element, but what about a structure about timelines? You made a significant announcement of $61 million. Is there any type of timeline, especially for some of the partners that are involved? What can people expect?
That's kind of where I'm at. I don't want to keep going on about it, but I'm looking for a better picture of the operational mechanics that you can tell people about in terms of what to expect. I think people are excited to see something take place, but I think more details would have been helpful. Can you at least give me some time frames?
4:45 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Aquatic Ecosystems Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
It's not a question of days. It's a question of weeks or a maximum of a few months to have the exact details that could be communicated. At the moment, unless the minister communicates it, it's not something that I can share with you.