Evidence of meeting #129 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was quota.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Okay. Thank you.
I'll turn the rest of my time over to Mr. Carrie.
5:05 p.m.
Oshawa, CPC
Thank you very much.
As Ken was saying, I'm not a usual member here, but I find what you're saying very interesting. I'm from Oshawa. Many of you may have heard that we're losing our plant. One of the reasons we're losing our plant is the competitiveness in the auto industry. Plants are consolidating, they're getting bigger, they're building in jurisdictions that are competitive. I see that there is a little bit of a similar thing going on in these different industries because what we're talking about are jobs of the future, jobs for the ways of life for our next generation.
I know in the sector, if you have unique Canadian regulations and different things that Canadians have to do from other companies that operate in other countries, it seems to be putting us at a competitive disadvantage. I think it was Christina who mentioned the Alaskans operating at 80%, where we're less than 40%. It's really great when we look at the science, but last time I checked, most fish don't know if they're in American waters or Canadian waters. We're trying to see what we can do as a federal government to look at this regulatory challenge because I'm worried. I'm worried about the jobs of the future and our kids. What amazes me is we're blessed to be in Canada, where we can actually look at the value chain and the value-added products going through that. My wife goes to Walmart and picks up sardines for $1.44. Somehow people get four sardines that are cooked, they're in a can that we could make in Canada, they're in plastic wrap and they make it to the store for $1.44.
I'm curious as to whether you could enlighten me if there's some really good advice you can give the Canadian government from a regulatory standpoint that would allow us to be more competitive, especially with our greatest competitor, the United States.
Christina, maybe you could go first.
5:05 p.m.
Executive Director, BC Seafood Alliance
I think most of you probably saw that The Globe and Mail a couple of weeks ago did a long investigation into Canada's data deficiencies. Fisheries was one of the major gaps. We know very little. We have gaps in stock assessment. We have huge socio-economic gaps. We don't know the impact of policies. DFO collects data, but it doesn't necessarily analyze that data. We need to look at a long-term partnership between industry and government. I really hoped that this would be one of your recommendations, that DFO needs to work with us to develop that data. Ms. Reid spoke to you last week about the groundfish economic study. We don't see how she can do it because fisher registration cards no longer require you to provide your place of residence. We don't think that she can do what DFO has committed for several years to do. A partnership to improve data would be a wonderful thing.
5:05 p.m.
Vice-President, Fisheries and Corporate Affairs, Canadian Fishing Company
They allow them a 50% tax credit for any new, innovative things in their plants. That gives them a huge advantage, and they're doing some really good things up there. They're leapfrogging us because of that.
5:05 p.m.
Executive Director, BC Seafood Alliance
If I can add one other thing—and I don't want to say that this is the panacea to sort everything out—B.C., as was mentioned earlier, is the only province in Canada without a provincial loans board. Alaska has two, in fact. Nova Scotia has programs specifically targeted at young fishers. If you want to buy a lobster licence at—I'm guessing—$1 million in Nova Scotia, if you can raise the 5% down payment, you can borrow most of the rest of that money.
5:05 p.m.
Director, Business Development, Sport Fishing Institute of British Columbia
And from a recreational fishery perspective, it is strictly—
5:10 p.m.
Mr. Ken McDonald (Avalon, Lib.)
We'll have to end it there. We've gone way over time.
Going back to the government side now, we have Mr. Hardie, for five minutes or less, please.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
To Martin and Owen, with regard to my own experience in the recreational fishery, if I were to total it up, the value of my catch would be about $132 a pound.
However, I want to expand a bit on the XRQ licences. This sounds like somebody is able to come in with lots of money and buy more access to fish than other people are allowed. Is that it?
That's it. You're nodding.
5:10 p.m.
Director, Business Development, Sport Fishing Institute of British Columbia
Yes, absolutely. That's it, Mr. Hardie.
5:10 p.m.
Director, Business Development, Sport Fishing Institute of British Columbia
Well, it happened in about 2011. I'd suggest that there was a certain political component to it. There was a reallocation of halibut from the commercial sector to the recreational sector— about 3%—based on some significant concern expressed during an election year by the recreational fishery.
What flowed out of that was a reallocation of 3% and this XRQ quota which was intended to be a marketplace mechanism. Again, as I pointed out earlier—I won't repeat my comments—it has created a two-tiered access to halibut, and a system that is pretty easy to abuse by people who have nefarious intent.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Okay. You can maybe provide us with some additional background offline, which will go into the record, if you wish.
Is it fair to say, then, that we could be looking at the same phenomenon with the XRQ licences as we're looking at with some of the quotas being purchased by Lord knows who for Lord knows how much, because nobody knows?
5:10 p.m.
Director, Business Development, Sport Fishing Institute of British Columbia
I'm not quite clear how that would work from a recreational fish perspective. I think the XRQ licence is a very specific licence to the recreational fishery.
5:10 p.m.
Executive Manager, Pacific Halibut Management Association, BC Seafood Alliance
I think some of the points that Martin is making need to be clarified. The program was envisioned in 2003, when the Honourable—
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Could you make it really brief—I'm sorry—because I have some more questions.
5:10 p.m.
Executive Manager, Pacific Halibut Management Association, BC Seafood Alliance
Yes.
The Honourable Robert Thibault was minister of fisheries, and that's what started this program; it would be a way to move quota from the commercial sector to the recreational sector. Sixty per cent of the recreational catch is attributed to the lodge and charter sector, so it was basically a way to go from commercial fishing businesses to recreational fishing businesses.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
We've talked a lot about the management of our stocks, and it sounds like there's a lot we don't know about the health of our stocks. Generally speaking, the systems in place have done a pretty good job in terms of providing sustainability. We're not overfishing.
However, I go back to the fact that we have a situation that needs to be at least looked at. As you mentioned, Ms. Burridge, that balance between risk and reward seems to not be very well balanced at all. I invite everybody to put some thought into that and to get back to us offline with your thoughts as to what we could do about that.
The other day I said that we don't want to blow up the current system, because people have done what they've done in good faith. However, the more we dig in, the more there are certain important things that we don't seem to know, especially about the ownership of licences and quotas. I think we need to drill into that and find out what we need to do to right the ship.
5:10 p.m.
Executive Director, BC Seafood Alliance
If I could make one point there, we have called, since I think 2004, for a quota licence and registry. It would have two outcomes. One, it would improve access to capital, but, two, it would improve transparency. I think Canadians deserve transparency, so it would be part of my data argument.
I'd like to see you recommend that. I also think that the individual fishery advisory processes need to wrestle with what change would mean in their fisheries, and they deserve a chance to do that themselves.
5:10 p.m.
Chief Chris Cook
I just want to share that, with the sport one.... I don't want there to be a big argument, but, you know, if my licence is the same, I can go out and all I can catch is salmon. If you have a sport licence and you leave Ottawa and get out on a boat, you can fish clams, herring, halibut and spring salmon. You can fish all these different species with one licence.
That's pretty unbalanced. For a $40 licence, you can fish all these different species. To go and fish halibut, it's $110 a pound for a halibut licence. A prawn licence is $500,000. A crab licence is $500,000. But with that sport licence, you can go out and get so many crabs, so many prawns, so much halibut—all these with one licence. That's pretty unbalanced.
5:15 p.m.
Mr. Ken McDonald (Avalon, Lib.)
Thank you, Mr. Hardie. You've gone a little bit over.
We'll go now to the NDP.
Mr. Donnelly, you have three minutes or less, please.
5:15 p.m.
NDP
Fin Donnelly NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to go to Mr. Nishidate.
The comment you made earlier was “find a better boss.” The challenge that we've heard about from young fish harvesters is that it's really hard when the quota holders are investors and don't operate a vessel.
How do you find a better boss in what you're recommending?
5:15 p.m.
General Manager, Grand Hale Marine Products Co., Ltd
The example I gave was that the diver didn't want to be in that situation anymore, so he went out and did it himself. There is that opportunity.