Fisheries Committee on March 18th, 2019

[Dr. Laura Graham]

Yes, if you look at some of the institutions down in the U.S. like the U.S. Navy, which runs a marine mammal program, they have what is basically a pen in the ocean. When we're developing these techniques, we have to know, for example, everything they're doing every day so that we can correlate it back to the hormones that we're measuring. That cannot be done on free-ranging animals. Once we've developed the technique for this species, then, as I said, we can apply it to free-ranging animals.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

If an animal were somewhat restricted in its movements, basically in a larger “natural” pen, if you like, as opposed to a concrete one, would that suffice?

[Dr. Laura Graham]

It should, as long as you understand everything the animal is doing.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

How much more do we need to know about their physiology? We've had an opportunity and will continue to have opportunities for that kind of research, at least as far as belugas are concerned, thanks to the animals in Marineland. How much more do we need to know?

[Dr. Laura Graham]

As a scientist, I'm never happy.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Never, yes.

[Dr. Laura Graham]

Exactly, that's right.

I can't really answer that. We can't predict what's going to happen in the future. The hormone techniques I'm talking about are evolving. We started out with reproduction. Then we included stress hormones. Now we're evolving into things like thyroid function, which was part of the orca study. We're also looking for non-evasive indicators of positive welfare, not just negative welfare. It's a continually evolving field of research.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I'll leave it at that, Mr. Chair.

Do any of my colleagues have any questions?

No, then we'll turn it over.

[The Chair]

Thank you for that.

Now to the Conservative side, we have Mr. Nicholson, for five minutes or less.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Mr. Chair, thank you very much.

Thank you all for your testimony here. What you had to say, Dr. Graham, was very significant with respect to the extinction of a particular species here because more effort wasn't made to do what we can to help them repopulate.

Mr. Burns, you said that if a beluga whale is pregnant and gives birth after the implementation of this bill, those who are there at Marineland and other places immediately face criminal charges.

If they postponed the enactment of this, how would that change? Don't these whales get pregnant on a regular basis?

[Andrew Burns]

Under the act, there's a requirement to cease breeding based on the scientific information we have. In order to separate such a large group of whales, which is extremely stressful, it will take a long period of time, particularly in the context of existing pregnancies. It could interfere with—if not kill—a pregnant mother to be separated from the balance of her family.

All that Marineland is saying is that, at this time, a reasonable proclamation date provides an opportunity to permit this to occur. We don't want it to occur.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

The gestation period is 16 months, you say?

[Andrew Burns]

It's 16 months, so we have whales that are currently pregnant and will give birth this year. We have whales that will give birth in 2020. While we separate, we may have some tail-end animals that become pregnant. It's very difficult to determine when they have become pregnant.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

The treatment of these animals is always foremost in everybody's mind. What you're saying is that if this bill gets passed, Marineland and others would have no choice but to start separating these families. How many years have some of these families been together?

[Andrew Burns]

Years, many years.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

You're saying that this bill here means that they'll have to be broken up and separated to make sure that—

[A voice]

It will cause stress.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Yes, that's right.

[Andrew Burns]

It'll cause a huge amount of stress. This is not moving two or three or four whales; this is more than 50 whales. This is a very complex process that will require a great deal of oversight and a great deal of care. Whales, when they are separated, display a great deal of stress, and it has to be done very carefully.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

In your previous testimony, you said, “Marineland continues to evolve. It's committed to evolving.” Could you please elaborate on that for us?

[Andrew Burns]

Yes. Many of the concerns raised by this bill appear to be around issues that are quite old. Marineland is one of the most heavily inspected and regulated institutions in the world. Not a single charge has been laid related to any of these issues raised by Ms. Visser or others—not a single charge. It evolves with the changing time, with new regulations, with new science. We're continuing to evolve positively with research programs, education programs and conservation programs.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

When you testified about this bill here, you said what a disaster it would be. You elaborated in a number of different ways on that.

The bill has been changed in some ways over the last couple of years or so. Does this alleviate any of your concerns?

[Andrew Burns]

Unfortunately it does not alleviate the specific concern that was raised in the Senate prior to these amendments that you're now considering. There was an opportunity for the Senate to address this specific issue two years ago, and it did not do it. It is now in the hands of the House to attempt to avoid a clearly unconstitutional bill.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Not only unconstitutional, but the implications of the Criminal Code and the possibility of charges that—

[Andrew Burns]

This is something we have considered carefully. As I said, we've obtained the advice of the former chief Crown for the Province of Ontario, the former director of criminal prosecution for Ontario, and what I have expressed he is in accord with. This is a situation we face as a practical matter that may be resolved, without affecting the overall purpose of the bill, by a proclamation date amendment.