Fisheries Committee on June 5th, 2019

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you. I must interrupt because we're very short on time.

We have a very difficult situation where there is no way to differentiate between smaller-sized rainbow trout or steelhead in the water as a fisherman, as a biologist or anything like that. It's the genetics and size. We have a serious problem there because until recently there was a trout fishery opening on the Thompson River at the same time that the steelhead numbers were declining. I want to make sure that that is in there.

I want to ask DFO—Ms. Reid might be able to answer this—should the Species at Risk Act come into play? How would government or regulators differentiate between rainbow trout smaller than 50 centimetres and steelhead for an enforcement role?

[Rebecca Reid]

Thank you for the question.

In the case of a positive listing decision where the steelhead would be listed, you're asking how we would distinguish.... In fact, I don't know. Maybe Mr. Thomson can respond.

[Andrew Thomson]

We would have to develop an enforceable morphometric measurement or methodology for distinguishing for that very purpose. It wouldn't—

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Under the Species at Risk Act, if a person catches, harms, kills or impedes any one of the species listed, they are in contravention of the law. How would you ever enforce something like that?

[Andrew Thomson]

It would be a significant challenge to develop the proper enforcement for that.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Are we far better to try to take measures to avoid getting into that situation?

[Rebecca Reid]

My view, and it speaks to the previous question, is that DFO and B.C. need to work collaboratively to come up with management measures that will effectively protect the species in a number of different ways, such as reducing bycatch, managing our fisheries, habitat protection, water protection and water flows.

It is through that collaboration and co-operation we will be able to design a program to effectively protect these species. I should say that there is government—

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

If I could interrupt you there, most of the testimony from the other two individuals indicated that pinniped predation was the largest factor, possibly along with the indiscriminate gillnet fisheries. You didn't mention pinniped management. Was there a reason for that?

[Rebecca Reid]

In our view, the question about pinnipeds is outstanding. We have done some work. There has been a recent symposium. There is some additional work going on.

I would say that the impact of pinnipeds on these species is not entirely clear.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

I'm sorry, Mr. Taylor. I'll let you chime in here in just a second.

One other thing that has been missing from this discussion today is the first nations component. I believe most of the chum fishery on the Fraser River has now been transferred over to first nations as a chum roe fishery.

How would you propose to manage that, if changes are to be made to that fishery?

[Rebecca Reid]

In the case of an economic or sale fishery, we would assign a priority for that lower than for a food, social and ceremonial fishery. The trade-off is for food, social and ceremonial access rather than economic access.

I believe what your—

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Was the first nations fishery traditionally a food fishery or was it a roe fishery?

[Rebecca Reid]

With regard to the food, social and ceremonial fishery, to me, the question is really at what level we would assign priority versus other fisheries.

That fishery would be assigned a priority second to conservation. Conservation would still come first.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Mr. Taylor, you wanted to chime in a couple of times. I'll turn it over to you.

[Dr. Eric Taylor]

Thanks very much. This addresses some of the questions by the chair earlier as well.

First of all, I wanted to provide my support for bold action that's required. This is related to the pinniped issue. That there may be some uncertainty as to the exact effect of pinnipeds is exactly why bold action is needed—some experimental culls and things like that where we can actually learn. Instead of residing in this sort of atmosphere of speculation, we can actually provide some management actions to reduce numbers in an experimental approach to try to understand the situation better.

Second, this is why listing under SARA is absolutely critical, and we're slipping from that. The catch-and-release fishery, which is closed for the steelhead, has a mortality rate that's one-twentieth of that of the gillnet bycatch. What is required is not to reduce the bycatch mortality to as low as possible through things like the integrated fisheries management plan state. What's required is to reduce bycatch mortality to zero. The only way you can do that is by listing these fish under the Species at Risk Act. That's exactly why we have a Species at Risk Act. It is to list and provide legal protection and recovery for any animal or plant that has been demonstrated by COSEWIC to be endangered.

Finally, listing it under SARA would provide exactly the umbrella for targeted and accountable co-operation between the province and the federal government that, in my opinion, has been lacking. It's been lacking ever since I've been at UBC, which is over 25 years. Putting it under the rubric of the Species at Risk Act will enforce it and require accountability, for every five years a minister has to report on the actions that have been taken or not taken to recover the species. That's why it's critical to list it under SARA.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you.

Now we'll go to Mr. Johns for seven minutes or less, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, all, for your testimony.

I'll start with Ms. Reid.

Have you explored looking at an absolutely new framework in terms of the management of the fishery? We've heard from our witnesses that there are three provincial ministries as well as DFO, with lots of overlap and lots of conflict between those ministries and the department.

Is there an idea or a vision of how to change what we're doing completely, and ensure that everything is streamlined and more efficient?

[Rebecca Reid]

Thank you for that question.

I would agree that DFO and B.C. have been working together for a very long time and certainly there are differences of opinion between us. Recently I think there has been a lot of interest and collaboration between us, particularly as it relates to steelhead management at the very senior level. Minister to minister there are conversations, and there is direction to staff to work together.

As a result, we have created working groups to actively develop the types of management actions required to be put into place to protect these species, so I would say there has been a lot of progress made over the past year towards that goal. I would say that the governance pieces around the three ministries within B.C. working together with DFO is something that continues to need work, but it is something that is supported at the ministerial level, which is very helpful and, I'd say, moving in the right direction.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

How do you resolve those conflicts when they arise, when there are challenges between governments and departments and ministries?

[Rebecca Reid]

Well, I think that—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

What mechanism?

[Rebecca Reid]

We do have formal mechanisms in place at the ministerial level. We have a ministerial-level committee. We have technical working groups. We have senior-level committees within governments to resolve disputes.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you.

What is the amount of money and resources that are allocated for restoring the steelhead to abundancy in terms of both the provincial and the federal contributions and commitments right now?

[Rebecca Reid]

I don't have a number for you right now.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Does the province have a number for their commitment?