Fisheries Committee on Sept. 29th, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

I call the meeting to order.

Good morning everybody. I was going to say welcome to Miramichi, but I think I'll let Mr. Finnigan do that. I haven't been back here in years and it's absolutely as gorgeous as I left it.

This is the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans from Ottawa. We are a committee that vets legislation primarily, but we also do studies, which is why we are here today. We are currently embarking on two studies. We just came from Newfoundland and Labrador for the cod study. Now we're here for the second study. We passed a motion on April 21, 2016, introduced by Mr. Finnigan, the member of Parliament. It states that the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans agree to undertake a comprehensive study on the conservation, restoration, and socio-economic issues related to the Atlantic salmon in Canada.

We thank our witnesses this morning, but we're going to depart from that for just a moment. I'm going to ask the MPs to introduce themselves, so you see the composition that we have. We have three parties represented: Liberals, Conservatives, and NDP.

With that, I'm going to ask Mr. Finnigan, who probably doesn't need an introduction, to go ahead, please.

[Pat Finnigan, Liberal, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again, welcome to beautiful Miramichi. We'll get to tour a good part of it in two days. I want to thank the guests invited to appear here. They're very passionate, as everyone on the Miramichi is. The rich history of the salmon, at one time commercial and now recreational, fishery is very important. I think we're still looking at numbers around $20 million a year.

Again, I just want to say welcome, please talk to the people here because that's what it's all about. The fishery has been here for hundreds of years and we're hoping that it will be here for many hundreds of years. I welcome Mr. Collins this morning.

That's my welcome. I'll pass it on to my next colleague.

[Ken McDonald, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Thank you, Pat.

My name is Ken McDonald, Liberal MP for the Avalon riding in the beautiful province of Newfoundland and Labrador. I'm delighted to be here this morning and quite pleased to see a number of people here to present to the committee, as we clue up our salmon study.

Pat was very passionate and very determined to make sure that this study got done. He expressed to us the need and what's happening, especially on the Miramichi River. We're delighted to hear what you have to say about that today to give us some factual information that we can bring back and have a look at.

[Pat Finnigan, Liberal, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

Let me just add that I also want to welcome our colleagues from the Restigouche River, which is in New Brunswick and Quebec, and I want to welcome our other two panellists. The Atlantic salmon has the same migratory route and it's all about protecting the Atlantic salmon, so you can't do it in just one area.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Go ahead, Mr. Arnold.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am Mel Arnold, the member of Parliament for North Okanagan—Shuswap in south central British Columbia.

I definitely have salmon through my riding as well. On the west coast, we have issues with salmon populations, so it's really important that we have this hearing here to see if there are commonalities between the two. Again, I recognize the importance of the Atlantic salmon fishery and the recreational input that's there with that and the economic spin-off from that because we have much of the same in B.C. I look forward to hearing your testimony this morning. Thanks for being here.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Good morning. My name is Todd Doherty. I'm the member of Parliament for Cariboo—Prince George. I'm the official opposition critic for the Asia-Pacific gateway, but also for Oceans and Fisheries and for the Canadian Coast Guard.

In our riding, as Mel has said, we have a long-standing salmon fishery, in terms of our first nations and our recreational fishing as well. I'm very excited to be here with our colleagues. I know that we've gone around and said Liberal and Conservative, but I echo my comments from yesterday that once we're elected we represent all.

I'm excited to be here. We've had a great three days of testimony on the northern cod. I'm looking forward to the passionate testimony today. I'm also looking forward to working with our committee members afterwards in developing an action-based plan after our study's done. Thank you for being here today and I really look forward to your testimony.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

My name is Gord Johns. I'm the member of Parliament for Courtenay—Alberni on Vancouver Island. It's a coastal community. Salmon is important to our community. We always tell people that the health of our salmon reflects the health of our communities.

I'm excited to hear from you today. I think we have a lot of similar issues, and being a coastal community, salmon is critical to our health and well-being. I'm excited to hear from you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

As you can see, our prescribed seating plan follows our party system, such as politics dictate, but we're a cordial group. This committee has a history of working together despite party divisions, and we must be cordial by now because we've travelled so much together.

Nevertheless, let's go to our witnesses. You're the reason we are here. I'm going to give you a brief introduction. What we normally do following this is that we give you up to 10 minutes to do your presentation. You don't have to take 10 minutes. You can take two minutes, you can take one, if you wish. Following that, we go to rounds of questions.

As a brief introduction, I want to welcome Catherine Lambert Koizumi, executive director of the Mi'gmaq Maliseet Aboriginal Fisheries Management Association. Thank you for joining us.

From the Miramichi River Environmental Assessment Committee, we have Mr. Harry Collins, executive director. From the Miramichi Watershed Management Committee, we have Deborah Norton, president; and from the Restigouche River Watershed Management Council, we have David LeBlanc, chief executive officer.

Have there been any documents distributed? We normally distribute them to the members, but we have this rule in the standing orders that if something is presented, such as any written submission from our guests, it has to be in both languages or we aren't allowed to distribute it, unless we get unanimous consent from the committee to accept it in one language. I think we have one in English. Do we have it en français?

Can I get unanimous consent from the committee to receive the input? It looks like we have consent.

That being said, Ms. Lambert Koizumi, we're going to let you go first, for up to 10 minutes. Thank you.

[Catherine Lambert Koizumi, Executive Director, Mi’gmaq Maliseet Aboriginal Fisheries Management Association]

Good morning, everyone.

l'd like to thank the committee for undertaking a study on the wild Atlantic salmon, and for inviting the Mi'gmaq Maliseet Aboriginal Fisheries Management Association to give testimony this morning.

As executive director of the association, and as a biologist by training, I am going to try as best I can to share with you the importance of addressing the challenges involved in the sound management and conservation of the Atlantic salmon, a species at the heart of the identity of the Mi'kmaq and Maliseet peoples.

I will start by briefly introducing our organization, and will then share certain results from the study we completed this year on Mi'kmaq and Maliseet ecological knowledge of the Atlantic salmon. I will end with certain challenges and preoccupations related to the management and conservation of that population.

Our association is a non-profit created in 2012 through DFO's Aboriginal Aquatic Resource and Oceans Management Program, or AAROM. Our members are from three first nations located in Quebec's Gaspésie and Bas-Saint-Laurent administrative regions, namely, the Mi'kmaqs of Gesgapagiag, the Mi'kmaq Nation of Gespeg and the Maliseet First Nation of Viger.

Our mission is to promote the sustainable development and conservation of aquatic and oceanic ecosystems on our member communities' territory and in their areas of activity, while fostering their interests and promoting their involvement in co-management processes.

The association is a forum for discussions and information-sharing between members, and advances the development, autonomy and innovation of Mi'kmaq and Maliseet fisheries, while fostering the inclusion of traditional aboriginal knowledge in the scientific approach.

In 2013, we embarked on a research project to document traditional Mi'kmaq and Maliseet knowledge about 14 species at risk in the marine portion of the St. Lawrence. In all, 28 participants from our three member communities took part in the study. They were selected or recommended because of their knowledge of the species under study, including the Atlantic salmon, known as plamu in the Mi'kmaq language, and polam in Maliseet.

Our study showed that the Atlantic salmon is at the heart of the Mi'kmaq and Maliseet peoples' culture, and is considered a vital link with the culture, with a way of life, and even with survival on reserves, according to certain respondents.

The Atlantic salmon has always been an integral part of the Mi'kmaq diet. According to our study, the fish is mainly used for food purposes in Gesgapegiag and Gespeg. Most of the time, it is shared within the community, or between relatives, friends and elders. Atlantic salmon is also shared at traditional ceremonies such as powwows.

Most of our study participants learned to fish for Atlantic salmon at a very young age, thanks to their family and friends. The rivers where the Atlantic salmon is fished by our participants are numerous: the Cascapedia, the Little Cascapedia, and the Nouvelle and the Bonaventure near Gesgapegiag; the Malbaie, Saint John, York and Dartmouth near Gespeg; and the Rimouski and Mitis in the Lower St. Lawrence, among others.

The participants' observations regarding the status of the population vary by river and by period. Overall, significant declines have been observed in several rivers in recent decades.

During our study, the participants noted several conservation challenges and made several management recommendations. I'd like to present those to you.

Firstly, to preserve the salmon's habitat, forestry practices need to undergo significant improvements and must be supervised more rigorously, because they are tied to siltation in resting pools and spawning areas, with run-off, and, when the snow melts, with flash flooding.

Another issue that affects habitat are the jams and obstacles to spawning, which should be catalogued and addressed to enable the salmon to follow their migratory route.

Overfishing risks, not only in the rivers, but in the oceans as well, are the third issue. This overfishing calls for increased monitoring. In this regard, I should mention Greenland's commercial salmon fishery in the Atlantic, which is clearly extensive enough to have a deleterious effect on the salmon population.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Ms. Lambert?

[Catherine Lambert Koizumi]

Yes?

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Madame Lambert, excuse me. I'm really sorry for interrupting. We've had a request from translation. Could you slow down just a little bit?

[Catherine Lambert Koizumi]

Yes. I'm sorry.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Could I ask if we can get the speaker moved to perhaps over here? We're finding it's mixing in with the translation, and we're having a harder time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Okay, we'll take two or three minutes to do that.

Ms. Lambert Koizumi, my apologies. The clock has stopped, obviously. You will have about five minutes as soon as we fix this.

We'll adjourn for a few minutes just to get the situation fixed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Okay, everyone, welcome back. It seems we have the problem fixed.

Thank you, Mr. Doherty, for that.

My apologies to Ms. Lambert Koizumi.

You have up to five minutes. Please, go ahead.

[Catherine Lambert Koizumi]

I had reached the third management recommendation, so I'll continue from there.

There are risks associated with overfishing, not only in rivers, but in oceans as well. This overfishing calls for increased monitoring. I should mention commercial salmon fishing in the Atlantic, notably in Greenland; it is clearly extensive enough to have a deleterious effect on the salmon population here. In this regard, we suggest adopting an integrated management of this species at the provincial, federal and international levels— with a place for first nations at each level—to determine catch levels consistent with salmonid conservation.

Several participants decried the catch-and-release method. They consider it a major cause of mortality, illness and vulnerability in salmon. Several salmon are found dead along the banks after being caught and released into the water, in so-called sport or recreational fishing. The effects of release on the salmon should be looked at and analyzed seriously.

The fifth point is predation, primarily by seals, but also by striped bass. Both species are becoming more numerous in the region. In fact, last summer, our association commenced a study on the presence and distribution of adult striped bass along the southern Gaspé coast, to get a better idea of the scope of the phenomenon.

Sicknesses affecting salmon in certain rivers could be related to water contamination and climate change, whose effects on salmon are still not well-known.

Invasive species constitute the seventh issue. Certain participants referred to the rainbow trout, which was introduced in certain waterways, and constitutes a potential threat to smolts.

The eighth point is about the fisheries agreements. The Mi'kmaq of Gesgapegiag entered into an agreement with the provincial government to temporarily stop fishing for food, social and ceremonial purposes, so as to facilitate salmon population growth in the Cascapedia River. The agreement appears to have been successful, but today, several members of the community would like to resume salmon fishing, which is a fundamental component of the traditional Mi'kmaq diet, and way of life. Efforts should be deployed to facilitate the resumption and pursuit of this traditional activity.

The last matter I will mention is raising awareness about the rights of indigenous peoples. In our study, it was noted that awareness-raising efforts are needed to enable the general public to better understand and accept the rights of first nations to fish wild Atlantic salmon.

I would personally add two recommendations to those made as part of our study. The first is about oil and gas. Exploration and development activities risk seriously damaging or destroying ocean feeding areas that salmon need to use before returning to the rivers to spawn.

There is also genetically modified Atlantic salmon, an aquaculture product approved last spring by Health Canada, which will be the first genetically modified animal to make its way to our grocery shelves. The approval was given unbeknownst to aboriginal peoples, without consultation, and, in our view, without having assessed the risks for wild salmon populations. One accident is all it would take to inadvertently contaminate the Atlantic salmon genetically. As far as these points are concerned, I think it would be in the federal government's interest to be much more prudent about the potential repercussions, not only for the salmon, but for our ecosystems generally.

I will conclude by quoting Mr. Terry Shaw of Gespeg, a director of our association, who took part in our study:

This species holds symbolic meaning for our traditions and for our identity as an aboriginal community. My ancestors fed on this fish for many generations, and our people continue to to do so. [...] I believe it's our responsibility and duty to ensure the salmon population remains present and accessible, because, for me, the species is culturally emblematic, and represents us as an aboriginal people.

As you can see, then, the wild Atlantic salmon is intimately connected with the culture and way of life of our Mi'kmaq and Maliseet communities. Several factors threaten this population, but there are solutions to secure the future of this species, today and for future generations.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Ms. Lambert Koizumi.

Next, we're going to go to Mr. Collins. Mr. Collins is from the Miramichi River Environmental Assessment Committee.

Mr. Collins, you have up to 10 minutes. Thank you.

[Harry Collins, Executive Director, Miramichi River Environmental Assessment Committee]

Thank you for the invitation. I appreciate it. I got the invitation late yesterday afternoon, so we rather scrambled to put together something. However, we have had discussions previously with Mr. Finnigan, and we thank him for that audience earlier. I look forward to sharing some of these points with the rest of the committee today.

The Miramichi River Environmental Assessment Committee has been active on the Miramichi River since 1998. We have had long-standing activity on the river. We have been observing with a lot of very credible science since that time not only the freshwater system but also the Miramichi estuary, which is a large estuarine system that's very productive, or at least has been in the past.

Something we've noted over that time is that, to no surprise, with the collapse of industry.... We've had base metal mining on Tomogonops and that is pretty much gone from the watershed now. In fact, you could say it has gone. We've had the pulp and paper sector here, which has collapsed within the last 27 years. Let's say we're looking at that time frame. That industry is now gone. We have other major industries that have collapsed as well, all of which have had input in the river and all have been measured in the past. Those impacts are pretty much gone.

On the positive side for the environment, all the collapses of industry are of course positive impacts on the overall environment, because we no longer have the significant impacts resulting. Add to that, we've had two new sewage treatment plants, the major one is having to do with the north side and the south side of Miramichi city. Those came online in this period of time.

That being the case, one would think that all of these things would reduce the impact on our watershed, and it's a large watershed. The Miramichi watershed is 23% of the province. It's a very significant watershed. It's the largest intact watershed within the entire boundary of New Brunswick.

One would think that with those changes you would get a real increase in basic food stocks, the fisheries stocks, and that environmental improvement would be very discernible. In many ways, it is.

However, we have been looking at that over the years, and we do not see what one would expect to see. One has to ask the reason why. One of the things that we had the privilege of hosting in 1996 was “Water, Science, and the Public: The Miramichi Ecosystem”. This was a science workshop, and Dr. Michael Chadwick was the editor of that. He took it out as a Canadian special publication of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences. It is available, of course, as that technical document.

We looked at the state of the environment during that time. We had scientists from all over Atlantic Canada, many from federal agencies, provincial agencies, and also universities and local colleges to present to that. This is a compilation of those papers. We even saw, back then, of course, that there were declines in some fish stocks. We also completed a state of the environment report in 2007. That, again, looked at the current status, reflected upon all the collapse of industries and the economic decline, which one would think would improve the environmental performance, but we didn't see that.

With all of these things compiling, we then had about a 10-year hiatus of science altogether for reasons you probably appreciate. We have not had significant science activity by the federal government, especially, on this watershed, and especially the estuary, for the last decade or so. With that in mind, we wrote a letter to the Honourable Dominic LeBlanc on August 8, 2016, and followed that up with a meeting with Mr. Finnigan. I'll share some of the excerpts and our ask to you from that letter.

We mentioned that there have been 27 years of dramatic improvements in the river's environmental condition, and we noted that despite the changes in water quality, our membership perceives worrisome declines in important fish populations. We talked about the two documents that reflected the kinds of changes that are worrisome, “Water, Science, and the Public: The Miramichi Ecosystem”, and the “State of the Environment Report for the Miramichi Watershed”, 2007.

The most recent report noted disturbing trends in eel, tomcod, shad, smelt, and Atlantic salmon, populations of which the latter two were once the world's largest. With our watershed smelt populations and the importance of that to our watershed, when we see such significant declines....

The cause of these declines is unknown, and we also, as an offset of that, see the decline in the abundance of aquatic shorebirds and predator raptors. Again, on the converse side, we see the increase of striped bass and grey seals. What is the cause of all this? Why are things not improving and, rather, seeming to be going sideways?

There are three requests that we made in this letter. First, we requested the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, of which the honourable Dominic LeBlanc is still, I understand, the minister, to provide a status update of the approved mentioned fish stocks including trends in landings and fishing effort.

For the second ask, we requested support, data, and funding, if possible, for a master's level project that would compare the current and historical states of the Miramichi ecosystem. We would receive technical support from the University of Moncton, the University of New Brunswick, NBBC, the Miramichi Salmon Association, the Atlantic Salmon Federation, and other organizations.

The third ask is to understand that MREAC, the Miramichi River Environmental Assessment Committee, is prepared to support and facilitate this science and would be pleased to meet with you at any time to discuss it further.

With that in mind, we're hoping to rekindle science on the Miramichi watershed. Much of this science can be concentrated in the Miramichi estuary where we see a number of these problems being manifested. That is the essence of that. We as an organization have been around. We have very credible, scientific backgrounds in terms of our membership. The federal and provincial support we've had in the past is now somewhat collapsed as a result of things that have gone on with them in the past 10 years of decline in federal science.

With that, gentlemen and ladies, I rest the case.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Mr. Collins. I appreciate it.

We have Ms. Debbie Norton, from Miramichi Watershed Management Committee, president. You have10 minutes or less, please.

[Deborah Norton, President, Miramichi Watershed Management Committee Inc.]

All right. Thank you.

As pointed out, I am Debbie Norton. I'm the president of the Miramichi Watershed Management Committee. MWMC, as it's referred to, was formed in 1995, and we have a tripartite agreement with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and their provincial counterpart, DNR, which has recently been renamed, to co-manage the Miramichi watershed drainage.

MWMC is not a conservation group, as such. It's a federation of stakeholder organizations along the Miramichi River. We share a common interest in ensuring the conservation and the wise use of the recreational fisheries resources of the Miramichi recreational fisheries area.

We have four species of concern: wild Atlantic salmon, brook trout in both sea run and residential forms, shad, and striped bass. We contend that the value of the recreational fisheries is a strong motivator for anglers, governments, and the general public to ensure the conservation of the fisheries resource upon which the angling fisheries are dependent. We further contend that the socio-economic value of our recreational fisheries is a major influence on the political will and the public's conscience to ensure a healthy environment and our quality of life here on the Miramichi.

You're going to be hearing me use the phrase, “harvest based on abundance” over and over again. Harvest based on abundance is a little like motherhood and apple pie. It's something that I don't feel we can argue against.

MWMC is urging the government to manage our ecosystems in equilibrium. You've already heard some of our colleagues say that they're not in equilibrium. They're out of control. The way things get out of control is through mankind. We're supposed to be the smartest species going, but we tend to favour one species over another. That allows one population to grow too big and the other to collapse.

Currently, on the Miramichi and in eastern Canada, we're in a position of our ecosystems being out of control.

First, I want to deal with wild Atlantic salmon. Their numbers are in serious decline and that's why you folks are here. We are currently in a recovery phase. There have been different regulations implemented to help rebound this population. We have a system of catch-and-release by anglers implemented in all of New Brunswick. There have been extensive studies done on catch-and-release that show that 3% to 5% of the population of anglers using catch-and-release don't make the grade.

I argue strongly that it's a more efficient way of making sure that our species continues than hitting them over the head. Some people will say that with catch-and-release, some of the fish die. If you hit them over the head when you angle them, then they're all going to die. If they're in the frying pan, they're not going to make babies to supplement our river system.

We are under catch-and-release for all the recreational angling here in New Brunswick. I would like to point out that we have three first nations living along the Miramichi. Two of them, Eel Ground and Red Bank, have voluntarily reduced their catches during the last two years. They have a certain allocation. They did not harvest those because they see the need, and they're playing their role in bringing the salmon numbers back, as well.

Going back to harvest based on abundance and the word “harvest”, there's nothing wrong with harvesting a fish if there is an abundance of them to harvest. We all grew up on the Miramichi eating fish because that was what the good Lord gave us at the time to eat. If there is an abundance of fish, then there's nothing wrong with harvesting them. We're currently working hard to bring those numbers back so that we get into a position where we once again can harvest fish to enjoy.

Second, when we get to this point, we have to have river by river harvests based on the abundance.

My colleague pointed out how big the Miramichi River is. There are actually four main rivers within the Miramichi drainage area. If there's an abundance fish that go up the Southwest Miramichi, it has absolutely nothing to do with the abundance in the Northwest Miramichi, and vice versa. When we move forward here and have fish to harvest, we have to harvest in each river independently, based on the abundance found in that river.

At one time we could predict how many fish might come in the following year based on what was going out, but because of sea mortality and all of these things, we can no longer say that in 2017 we expect x number of fish. MWMC is advocating that in 2017 we do counts to determine if there is an abundance of fish to harvest. They're called mid-season reviews. In other words, we're going to count the fish that come up the river from May until the middle of July, and then take a look to see if it looks like we're going to have an abundance. If there is an abundance, there's nothing wrong with harvesting that abundance on that particular river.

Say the number is 500 or 1,000, whatever the number is, the way that we would suggest harvesting it is that a system be designed here in New Brunswick similar to our moose lottery. Moose are allocated based on the abundance of the moose population, it should be the same thing with fish. If I wanted to harvest a fish and there was an abundance, I could put my name in and perhaps get a tag to harvest the abundance of that fish.

I have much to say about Atlantic salmon, but I'm going to move on for the sake of time.

I'd like to point out that the striped bass from the Gulf of St. Lawrence stock are not—and the word “not” is very important—an invasive species to the Miramichi or to this area. They've been here forever. They were in serious decline. I would have to point out that the work of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans is probably the biggest success story ever at bringing a species back in the face of extinction. At one time, not very long ago, it was estimated that we had 4,000 of this particular species. The current number out there is somewhere over 300,000. It's a tremendous success story.

I would like to mention again harvest based on abundance and bringing our ecosystem into equilibrium. Nobody from MWMC is looking to destroy the striped bass. They are not an invasive species. They belong here, but since we do have this great excess, we are looking to harvest more of them. It's a great opportunity for recreational anglers to get out and enjoy fishing, the culture and everything else about fishing.

In 2014 we actually wrote to DFO. The letter is attached. Even back then, when the numbers were only around 200,000, we asked for a number of things. We asked that any bass caught exceeding 55 centimetres be allowed to be harvested. That would eliminate the 2013 slot where many anglers found it difficult to catch a fish to keep. We also asked that any bass caught in non-tidal waters be eligible for harvest since they are preying on fish in that area. We asked that the bag limit per day be set at at least a minimum of four per day, which, in MWMC's opinion, would reduce the population to a healthier level for the overall ecosystem. We asked that a person be able to be in possession of at least 12. This would allow the fishery to continue on a sustainable basis. We asked that pinch-barb hooks be mandatory, thus allowing anglers to continue to angle and release fish without excessive damage. Finally, we asked that the season be opened on April 15 and closed on November 15 of each year.

Since this time, the population has continued to grow. As a result of that, it is MWMC's position that our local first nations on the river should perhaps be given a sustainable commercial harvest licence, which would help to bring down the population and put our ecosystem back into equilibrium.

Another thing that's totally out of whack in our equilibrium here is our seal population. Again, harvest is based on abundance. You will never hear MWMC advocate that we should destroy one species to save another, but we do believe that everything has to be in equilibrium. Currently our seal population is not in equilibrium.

There are currently plans on the table for harvesting and using all of the carcass to be sold to various markets. MWMC would advocate that Miramichi's Eel Ground First Nation, who is a stakeholder with MWMC through its affiliation with Anqotum, be allowed to proceed with a seal harvest here in Miramichi Bay, and should they not desire to do so, that other organizations in a position to harvest be granted the authority to do so.

Very quickly, on the protection of resources, we need more. Miramichi is 12,000 square kilometres. We need additional staffing. We need joint patrols with provincial government enforcement. We need additional training for first nation guardians to make them eligible to do joint patrols. We need technology. There are all sorts of things out there, such as drones. As you'll see today, the officers in the field are in the middle of nowhere. Cellphones don't work. Officers need satellite phones so they can call for backup, and they can relay the messages back and forth. We need better education programs for the communities. Perhaps one of them would be established in a river watch program.

Thank you very much for this invitation. I really hope it helps to increase our salmon population.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Ms. Norton.

Colleagues, we've had two requests for additions. In this panel and the next, we will fit someone in. However, given the time and the break we had earlier for technical issues, I'm going to have to ask that we extend beyond 12 o'clock. We likely will have to go to 12:15 p.m. or 12:20 p.m. in order to accommodate.

Is that okay with the committee members here? We're good with that?

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

As long as Pat buys coffee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Pat, apparently you have to buy coffee in order for this to proceed.