Fisheries Committee on Sept. 29th, 2016

[David LeBlanc]

The habitat restoration in the Restigouche system is mainly done by local groups, so compared to a big industrial project, it's very few dollars. We try to stabilize the bank with a few thousand dollars every year, but it's not enough. We have to look at the global approach, the impact of forestry, and all the damage caused to the peak flows and the change in water regime. It doesn't need only investment; it needs modernization and change in the regulations. The industry needs to adopt models that do not impact other industries and activities, such as recreational fisheries.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Mr. Johns and Mr. LeBlanc.

Back over to this side, we are going to Mr. McDonald for seven minutes, please.

[Ken McDonald, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again, thank you to our four witnesses for some insightful testimony here this morning.

Several of you mentioned predation. Debbie, you put it in a pretty good sense: if you let one thing get way out of control from where it should be in the balance of everything else, it causes major problems. We've mentioned it. When we started our study in Ottawa and had the officials in, one of the questions I asked was about the seal and the Atlantic salmon, and the officials said they didn't have any proof that the seals were having any effect on the salmon. It's not part of their major diet, I think was exactly what I was told. I was told the same thing this week in St. John's and in Ottawa, that the seals maybe don't eat that much codfish, either. My argument, in both cases, is that they're eating something, and they are way out of control, as we've heard people tell us, whether it be you, or fishermen, or whatever.

I've lived on a river for 55 years, and these past seven or eight years we've seen seals in the actual river. It's not a salmon river, but sea trout migrate there. Growing up, we would never see that; it was just non-existent. We'd never see a seal, let alone see it in our river.

What do you think government should do? There is the striped bass issue as well. Should government really take a good, hard look at these predators and come up with a plan? They are in major numbers, so should there be some sort of a fishery thing when it comes to the striped bass, or a harvest when it comes to the seal, to put the numbers back in balance for the whole ecosystem to work the way it should be working?

[Deborah Norton]

I don't think we should be looking at a cull where any animal is senselessly slaughtered and left for no purpose. With the seal population, I wouldn't want to be anything, including myself, swimming by if the animal was hungry and expect not to get a swat taken at me. Obviously, when you have hundreds and thousands of things out there, they have to eat something. Maybe salmon or trout are not their primary sources of food, but if it's the only source of food, I suspect they'll munch down here and there.

You have to harvest based on abundance. There is a tremendous opportunity to help put this ecosystem back into balance and to restore it to equilibrium. Seals can be harvested. The products can be sold. It's a tremendous economic benefit that could be had here for Atlantic Canada in not trying to eliminate seals, but just bringing their numbers down to a manageable population. It's the same with striped bass. If we were to increase our allocations on striped bass right now, then it would greatly increase the recreational fishery for them. There would be economic benefits with the populations the way they are. MWMC would like to see some of our first nations get a sustainable commercial harvest to bring the population down.

[David LeBlanc]

We saw a seal last year 125 kilometres from the ocean. That's a bit high in the system. It stayed there for the summer, so you can imagine what it was eating. I tried to get a permit and to notify DFO that maybe we should harvest that seal because it would do damage all summer, but with the red tape I had to go through, I couldn't get the permit. I would have had to ask a commercial licence-holder from, maybe, the Acadian Peninsula to submit the request for a permit saying that it was causing damage to his own fishery.

It was a bit of a problem, and it's now common to see seals at the mouth of the Restigouche River every year.

[Catherine Lambert Koizumi]

I would like to add that I think monitoring is key.

As you mentioned, there's an increase in seal and there's an increase in striped bass, but they're both non-invasive species. They were here before, and we have changed the balance of the ecosystem so many times, not just over the last 20 years, but over the last 300 years. We need to take a step back and look...they're not enemies. They are there. We have to monitor their diet—maybe they don't eat that much salmon, but maybe they do—and adopt a precautionary approach. I think that's necessary, as with all harvest policies, and there is a chance to increase the seal harvest, absolutely.

In the Mi'gmaq, they started to hunt seal again because they're everywhere. Striped bass is the same thing, and I know our nations have requested, for the past two years, a commercial licence for striped bass. We were told not yet, but I'm hoping that the federal government will be open to it with reasonable small quotas to start and see how it goes from there. There is an imbalance with the salmon and other species that are in low abundance in comparison to the seals.

[David LeBlanc]

We talked about seals and striped bass, but there are other predators or other species having an impact on the salmon. There are cormorants, mergansers, and beavers. Beavers are a problem for the Restigouche River system because the price of the pelt is low. There's no interest from trappers, and the beavers are building structures that prevent the salmon from reaching their spawning grounds.

[Ken McDonald, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

I think everybody mentioned the disconnect between the various departments of government, whether it be forestry, environment, or DFO, and even in consultations with groups like yourselves when making decisions that affect things that are on the river or taking place in the river.

What recommendation could we bring back to the department to try to change that, especially when major projects are under way? As you said, there was the railway project, where they filled in a popular, good salmon pool with no consultation whatsoever. They just did it, and then we have to go back and fight about it afterwards.

[David LeBlanc]

Actually, I think today and tomorrow there's a meeting in Moncton for the first time of a joint venture partnership that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans is putting in place, so I think it's a good start. It's going to be a board of directors representing different scientists and people from the different governments to identify fields of research for the salmon.

More talk between the different Department of Fisheries and Oceans branches is a solution, but sometimes it's our role to have them. As I said previously, yes, you're doing density surveys, but if there are no juveniles there you have to address that.

I also think it's part of our role, as the local group, to connect. The Restigouche River Watershed Council works through some science committees. We have representatives from the Quebec government, the Department of Natural Resources New Brunswick, DFO, and Atlantic Salmon Federation. Every year, at least once, we sit together for two days and talk about these things.

I think there are local solutions that can help for this issue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Mr. LeBlanc.

Thank you, Mr. McDonald.

Mr. Doherty, you have five minutes, please.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Thank you.

Thank you to our guests today, as well.

As we've had over the last three days, we've had great testimony that definitely is better education than what you can get having an academic who's coming to us in Ottawa, as well. Listening to the local issues and hearing first-hand from those who are living, and making their living, off the shores of the rivers and in their local communities is very important.

It's come up, witness after witness, about the forest practices issues. In British Columbia, invasive species in our forests, whether it's the pine beetle or the spruce beetle, have led to accelerated harvesting.

I know that in this area, you have the spruce budworm and the brown spruce longhorn beetle. Has the harvesting of your forests been accelerated to try to get the infected trees out of the area? Has that contributed to it?

Is that the major issue with your forestry companies' practices, or is it just a matter of history, where your forestry companies have been unchecked? We saw that earlier on in B.C. with clear-cuts and what have you. As we've evolved, our forest practices have had to evolve as well.

What you're talking about today, is that primarily because your harvesting has had to be accelerated because of the infestation?

[David LeBlanc]

I would say, no. Yes, we see an increase in the rate of the cut because of the budworm outbreak. However, the change in the forestry plan in New Brunswick... It's always from lobby...to cut the expense. It's always based on economy. The threat of closing mills leads to cheaper ways to cut, with larger areas cut.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Would you say forestry is one of your larger employers in your region?

[David LeBlanc]

Yes. In New Brunswick, it's the biggest employer.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Okay.

[David LeBlanc]

They wanted to cut the expense to harvest, so they requested and they changed the New Brunswick forestry management plan to allow a bigger cut. They will cut, prepare the ground for any replanting, and then spray. That's the way New Brunswick is...clear-cut, planting, and spraying. It is the cheapest way. Instead of having people going there to tend the forest, they will spray with glyphosate.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Almost from tip to tail, every one of our witnesses today talked about the first nations, as well as DFO and local partnerships. Would you say there is a good relationship between our first nations and our non-first nations fishers in these areas?

[Catherine Lambert Koizumi]

I would say, generally, yes. I think it's improving with time. However, like I mentioned, I think the awareness of non-aboriginal people is important to work on. Now, Gesgapegiag stopped doing communal fishing a few years ago, but in Gespeg they do it. I know there's a lot of frustration over why they can't they harvest, but it's for the community.

I think that for us, it's an issue to work on education of the public, just so that everybody is aware and accepting of the history of first nations and their treaty rights in regard to salmon, as well.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

It's very important. My wife's family is first nations as well and I understand that. It's equally important in every community. We must be able to have that.

Mr. Collins, you talked about a report that was done in 1996, and then the next one was done in 2007. Who commissioned those reports? Who did those reports?

[Harry Collins]

The report was edited by Michael Chadwick, and Fisheries and Oceans Canada was the support for that. This is the “State of Environment Report for the Miramichi Watershed-2007” from Environment Canada. With the Atlantic Coastal Action Program we used to have a component of funding for the science linkages initiative. With the support of that science linkages funding, we were able to produce the 2007 state of environment report.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Mr. Chair, a our few of our witnesses have mentioned reports that have been done previously. I believe Ms. Wood talked about the report that her group has done. I'm wondering if we can get copies provided to the committee as well. Not today, obviously, but at a later date, so that we can review them. Our analysts can have them as well, for historical information.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

We'll look into the studies. We'll get more information from Mr. Collins and Ms. Wood and we'll have them available for our discussions when we get back to Ottawa

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

I just think it's valuable to have as we move forward to know where we've been and where we're charting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Agreed.

Mr. Johns, you have three minutes, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thanks.

I'll just tell a quick story. Mr. LeBlanc, you talked about forestry practices. Where I live in the Alberni valley on the west coast, we're seeing a lot of the private forestry companies. We're seeing an accelerated cut. We're seeing a lot of the wood move from dryland sorts to the water. We have booms. The sediment is hitting the ocean floor. It's choking out the bottom. As climate change is happening, the top of the river system is heating up, and the rivers are getting choked out as they're coming upstream.

It's easier to get permits now to put the wood on the water. What kind of changes have you been seeing since the changes to the Fisheries Act in 2012? Have you seen anything apparent that is having an impact right now?