I have not spent much.
Evidence of meeting #25 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pots.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #25 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pots.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
Mr. Hutchings, you've said that science alone should determine harvest limits. Do you not think that we should be talking with the local fishers and consulting local fishers, local communities that depend on the economics of the fish stock?
4:45 p.m.
Killam Memorial Chair in Fish, Fisheries and Oceans, Department of Biology, Dalhousie University, As an Individual
I think we should set quotas, knowing what the targets are and knowing what the parameters are for what we're trying to achieve in a fishery.
Is there a role for fishers? Absolutely, but as I said in response to Mr. Morrissey's question, I think the science and the pros and cons of having a higher or a lower quota under any given circumstances should be clear to everyone, so that everyone can judge the appropriateness of the decision.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
Okay. It has come up time and time again in our testimonies up to today, and again today, have any of your organizations studied capelin and the effects on the cod stock population? Have you done a capelin study?
4:45 p.m.
Killam Memorial Chair in Fish, Fisheries and Oceans, Department of Biology, Dalhousie University, As an Individual
I have not done a capelin study.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
I'm sorry, I don't know who mentioned that we're looking at another poor year or a poor season with capelin. I would think that's something we should probably look at, or invest in, as we look at and project how our northern cod is going to be affected by that.
Mr. Sinclair, correct me if I'm wrong, but did you mention that at this point there has been no significant recovery since the 1992-93 moratorium, or was that with the 2003 report?
4:45 p.m.
Co-chair, Subcommitee on Marine Fishes, Committee on the Status of Endangered Wildlife in Canada, As an Individual
Yes, that was regarding when the COSEWIC reports were done previously in 2003 and 2010.
The observation at the time was that there was no significant increase in the population. Things are, obviously, different now.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
Can any of our guests tell us what the water temperatures are like off the coast of Norway? Are they warmer or colder?
4:45 p.m.
Co-chair, Subcommitee on Marine Fishes, Committee on the Status of Endangered Wildlife in Canada, As an Individual
I think they're cold.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
Are they? Are they colder than those off Newfoundland? We have had testimony within the last week saying that because of the jet stream, or what have you, it's warmer than off the coast of Newfoundland.
4:50 p.m.
Killam Memorial Chair in Fish, Fisheries and Oceans, Department of Biology, Dalhousie University, As an Individual
It rather depends on what part of Norway. They're caught along the south part of Norway that experiences incredibly warm temperatures, almost too warm, 20 degrees, 22 degrees in the summertime. As you go farther north, of course.... The waters are warming, definitely, as they are here. In an absolute sense, it's hard to get colder than Trinity Bay in March.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
It was chilly last week, too.
I have one other question, and this is to our panel. Do you have any suggestions as to why Norway rebounded so much quicker than we did?
4:50 p.m.
Killam Memorial Chair in Fish, Fisheries and Oceans, Department of Biology, Dalhousie University, As an Individual
I can offer a perspective.
First, the stock didn't decline nearly to the same extent. It declined to about 10% of its maximum size.
Second, Norway decided to curtail fishing activity at a time when the cod stock—and we haven't talked much about it today—still had a broad age and size structure. One of the unfortunate things we did in Canada was to keep fishing and fishing, and we narrowed and narrowed the size and age structure of cod, such that after the moratorium it was difficult to find a cod aged nine or 10, although the fish can live to age 24 or 25.
4:50 p.m.
Co-chair, Subcommitee on Marine Fishes, Committee on the Status of Endangered Wildlife in Canada, As an Individual
I was just supporting what Dr. Hutchings said. I agree with his explanation of the differences between what happened in Norway and what happened in Canada.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Scott Simms
Thank you very much.
Thank you, Mr. Doherty.
By the way, for the record, both Mr. Doherty and I are wearing sealskin today. I just thought I'd point that out.
Okay, Mr. Sopuck, as well.
Ms. Jordan, five minutes, please.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you very much to our guests today. I found all this very interesting.
Dr. Favaro, I'm going to go to you first in regard to the gillnets versus the pots. You talked a lot about the quality of the fish when you bring it in. What about the amount? Would you still be able to catch the same amount with a pot as you do with the gillnet?
4:50 p.m.
Research Scientist, Fisheries and Marine Institute, Memorial University of Newfoundland, As an Individual
I'll put it this way, the weekly quota for fishing vessels on Fogo Island is 2,000 pounds a week. We were getting 2,000 pounds a day. If it were more efficient, then maybe you could fish for less than a day. It's not making a huge material difference in the labour that goes into it.
The other thing is that pots are much less labour intensive when you bring them aboard. You pull them up, you shake them, and the fish come out. With gill nets, you have to pick all the fish out, especially when they've been left out too long. The fish can get all tangled. They can get mashed in it. There are all sorts of challenges with that. When we're looking at these different gears, we're looking at the usability of the gear in real-world conditions, as well as in ideal conditions.
My response to you is that we were able to catch them at a volume that was sufficient for the fish harvesters we were working with.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Right.
Further to the net versus the pot, you talked a little about the ghost fishing with the gillnets that get lost. Is that not a concern at all with the pots? I've seen pots that have been left and have washed ashore in other fisheries. Can it not happen with this as well?
4:50 p.m.
Research Scientist, Fisheries and Marine Institute, Memorial University of Newfoundland, As an Individual
To mitigate that, you can put in a biodegradable panel. You can work in some twine that will actually degrade when it's been in the water for too long. If you do lose the pot, it actually opens up and the fish can swim out over time. That isn't to say that there's no impact of having garbage on the bottom of the ocean, because there certainly is, but it's one impact you can do something to mitigate.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Okay, thank you.
My next questions would go to Dr. Hutchings and Mr. Laughren because you both made kind of the same reference to science. I believe one of you said it should be based on stronger science only where we go forward with the quotas, with the reopening of the fishery.
Are you talking independent science? Are you talking DFO science? Is there a combination? I may be wrong, and please correct me if I am, but I kind of get the feeling that you're not thrilled with the DFO science that's come about. Is it better to say we need an independent review of the fishery?
4:50 p.m.
Killam Memorial Chair in Fish, Fisheries and Oceans, Department of Biology, Dalhousie University, As an Individual
I think 20 or 25 years ago, I would have said that I felt that the DFO scientific review of its work wasn't as transparent as it should be. Today, however, I think DFO's scientific reviews are quite open and quite transparent. They do incorporate the industry, the union, and academics. I think perhaps they could make better use of NGOs than they have in the past.
Basically, what I could envisage emerging from a review of this nature is that science, through a variety of different types of models, comes up with estimates of target reference points. There are various targets that are used internationally and nationally and there can be uncertainties associated with what they might be, but the key element to these types of meetings is that they're peer-reviewed. In other words, the methodology is there to be torn apart if it needs to be torn apart, and if assumptions are made that are inappropriate, people will hear about them.
Ideally, you end up having scientific advice or a recommendation that is based on the best available information, and the methodologies that have been used to obtain that advice have been thoroughly vetted.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Thank you.
This can be for whoever wants to answer. We're now 25 years into the moratorium, and I know that with the increase in the stocks now, a number of fishers in Newfoundland are feeling that maybe we're moving towards a commercial fishery. I get the feeling from listening to you that we're not there yet; we're not ready to reopen a commercial fishery. It's not at a sustainable level. Is that a fair assumption?
4:55 p.m.
Killam Memorial Chair in Fish, Fisheries and Oceans, Department of Biology, Dalhousie University, As an Individual
Well, I would say, actually, that we do have a commercial fishery right now.