Evidence of meeting #27 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was iceland.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Vidar Landmark  Director General, Department for Fisheries and Aquaculture, Government of Norway
Gudmundur Thordarson  Marine and Freshwater Research Institute
Elisabeth Norgard Gabrielsen  Director, Section for Fisheries Management, Government of Norway

11:40 a.m.

Marine and Freshwater Research Institute

Gudmundur Thordarson

Well, it's probably a bit early days on that, but it has kind of ensured that the whole chain, from fishing to the market, is traceable, and in such a way that it is caught in a sustainable fishery. It's a kind of certification for that.

I would really like to comment about your earlier question, if I may. In Iceland we do not have these restrictions about quotas going between different vessel types. It's much easier in that sense. What I would say is that the best thing for Canada is to have clearly defined rules. You may want to have set ship or vessel types, which is a political decision, but have a fairly simple system whereby you set the rules and leave the politics out of it, and do not meddle in it on a year-to-year basis.

That has been the experience from Iceland. The industry itself has developed in such a way that, because of the system, it's now one of the most highly profitable fishing industries in the world, and the most technically advanced fishing industry in the world. Also, part of that, to get into premium markets, is the certification, whether it is the Icelandic certification program, or the Marine Stewardship Council's, or something else.

From the management side of it, which is where I come from, in terms of what this has really helped, in a sense, is that the industry is realizing that, as the Norwegians said, it's the quality, not the quantity, and that it's better to sell in a premium market where you have the certification. That really says that you do not get certification if you do not fish by the rules and if you're not fishing from a sustainable stock. In a sense, that helped the debate on management a lot, and where you should follow advice, etc.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Robert Sopuck

Thank you very much.

Now to Mr. McDonald for seven minutes.

Ken McDonald Liberal Avalon, NL

Thank you to our guests for appearing by video today.

I've heard the answers to the questions that have been asked, and it's very interesting material. I'm from Newfoundland and Labrador, so the cod fishery to us is very important. It was a big deal when the moratorium came in now almost 25 years ago. We still haven't recovered to anywhere near what your countries have per se. What, in your opinion, have we done wrong, and what should we do to make it right?

Mr. Thordarson from Iceland, you can go first, and then Mr. Landmark, from Norway.

11:45 a.m.

Marine and Freshwater Research Institute

Gudmundur Thordarson

That's a big question. I don't know, but what I'm gathering is that there was not really a collapse in Iceland, nor in the Barents Sea. There was a huge decrease in fishing, but there was not really a stock collapse, which is what you had in Canada. It's a matter of scale. The collapse was more severe in Canada.

The advice, what I would say, is that you may have just changed the whole ecosystem by this huge collapse. Whether you will ever get the same thing again is everybody's question, basically. It's not certain.

So, yes, I do not have any clear answer to that. I hope the Norwegians have.

11:45 a.m.

Director General, Department for Fisheries and Aquaculture, Government of Norway

Vidar Landmark

Thank you very much.

We don't have any clear answer to that, but we have some experience that is not similar yet is a little bit similar in terms of a collapse, and that was a real collapse in our herring stock back in the 1970s. That was a big fishery, where the quantities were hundreds of thousands of tonnes. It disappeared at the beginning of the 1970s. It also took some 15 to 20 years before it came back in any significant quantities.

It's impossible from this side of the Atlantic to give any advice on the biological questions, but the advice must be to be very careful when the fisheries start to come back, as I understand that in the last couple of years a little bit of improvement has been shown. My advice would be to be very careful now in the starting up and be very careful on how you design a management policy, and at least a fishing fleet policy, on how to utilize this stock in a very careful manner when it starts coming back. That was what we did in the herring fishery back in the 1990s. We did it very carefully and very slowly and tried to take care of the herring as it came back not only to rebuild the stock but to rebuild the fishery in economic terms. It has to be done with very careful thinking on how to utilize and who should utilize this resource.

Ken McDonald Liberal Avalon, NL

Thank you.

Again to both individuals, how often do you do a full stock assessment not only on the cod stock itself but on what they prey on, whether it be shrimp or capelin, and on the predators as well? Is it yearly, every second year, every third year? How often do you do that type of assessment?

11:50 a.m.

Marine and Freshwater Research Institute

Gudmundur Thordarson

From Iceland, the cod stock is assessed once a year, in the spring, like in Norway. Once they've done the assessment, then the advice goes through the ICES umbrella. For most of the commercial stocks, it's annual. During the fishing of capelin there are lots of searches of the capelin, so you could say that the assessment is done maybe two or three times during the fishing season. It's mostly annual for the top predators. Whales are part of the IWC, International Whaling Commission, system, and it's every five or seven years, something like that. So, yes, it's annual, I would say.

11:50 a.m.

Director General, Department for Fisheries and Aquaculture, Government of Norway

Vidar Landmark

Yes, that's the same in Norway for the fish species. This is an annual assessment. On the whales in the IWC system, it's every six years, if I'm not mistaken.

Ken McDonald Liberal Avalon, NL

Thank you.

Mr. Thordarson, you mentioned shrimp versus cod. In looking at it, which would you put a higher value on, cod as a supply or shrimp?

11:50 a.m.

Marine and Freshwater Research Institute

Gudmundur Thordarson

Kilo for kilo, the price of shrimp is often higher, but the amount of cod is much greater, and it's also.... Yes, I would put all my money on cod and have that rather than shrimp.

Ken McDonald Liberal Avalon, NL

Thank you. That's it for me.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Robert Sopuck

Okay.

We now have Mr. Viersen for five minutes.

Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB

Thank you to our guests for being here today. It's much appreciated.

In a similar vein to the last question, when you're dealing with shrimp versus cod, is that a fair assessment? Is it that when you take one, you lose the other? Is that a fair assessment?

11:50 a.m.

Marine and Freshwater Research Institute

Gudmundur Thordarson

In Iceland, not really. There's also been a change in oceanographic conditions. It has been warming up in the northwest where shrimp were abundant, so that's not helping the shrimp. The peak fishing for shrimp was when the cod was low. Now we have a big cod stock, and also a fairly big haddock stock, and all of these are feeding on the shrimp.

The juveniles feed a lot on shrimp. Shrimp is caught both on the northern shelf and also inside the fjords along the north and west coasts. These fjords are grounds for juvenile cod and haddock to a large extent, so the shrimp fishermen complain a lot. We have a similar area, like in Norway, of closures where there are juvenile fish, etc. The shrimp fishery is often closed because of juvenile cod and haddock.

The shrimp stocks have probably never been really large to begin with, if that answers your question.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB

Mr. Landmark, would you say that shrimp and cod are inversely proportional, or is that not a fair assessment?

11:50 a.m.

Director General, Department for Fisheries and Aquaculture, Government of Norway

Vidar Landmark

Yes, the feeding pattern of cod is more or less the same in Norwegian waters, but we do not have that advanced multi-species management, as I understand, that Iceland would have, except for the example of the managed northern capelin, where we tried to make sure that the cod gets what it needs before we open up for commercial fisheries, both for Norwegian and Russian vessels in the Barents Sea for capelin.

As far as I remember, we have closing criteria for juvenile cod and for intermixtures of shrimp, I think. It goes both ways. The cod fishery is not allowed to take too much shrimp, and the shrimp fishery is not allowed to take cod juveniles and some other species, such as Greenland halibut and redfish, I think. We do not have a very clear management policy on the prioritization between cod and shrimp.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB

You mentioned that last year you had 800,000 tonnes of fish coming out of the North Sea. I'm wondering, what proportion of the cod would be high-quality value versus more of the mass production, processed cod? Where is the proportion of those 800,000 tonnes going? Is it going into fish sticks, or is it going into whole fish on ice in the supermarket?

11:55 a.m.

Director General, Department for Fisheries and Aquaculture, Government of Norway

Vidar Landmark

The total quota of the northeast Arctic cod this year and in 2015 was 894,000 tonnes. That is divided between Norway and Russia, and some foreign third countries also. I do not have figures on the utilization of the 400,000-plus tonnes in the Norwegian quota, but most of it would go into two different markets. It is either sold as fresh roundfish or fresh fillets, or it is salted or dried cod. Those are the two main markets that this Norwegian quota goes into. A very small portion of it goes into fish fingers and so on.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB

Okay.

11:55 a.m.

Director General, Department for Fisheries and Aquaculture, Government of Norway

Vidar Landmark

It is a clean cod product, most of it.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB

That's exactly what I was wondering about. It's more the high-value cod products.

11:55 a.m.

Director General, Department for Fisheries and Aquaculture, Government of Norway

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB

What would that 894,000 tonnes equate to in dollar value?

11:55 a.m.

Director General, Department for Fisheries and Aquaculture, Government of Norway

Vidar Landmark

That is a good question. The Norwegian quota is something like 420,000 tonnes.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB

Did you say 420,000?