Fisheries Committee on Feb. 25th, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Order. This is meeting number four of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans.

I want to thank our guests for coming.

Our witnesses, from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, will be here until 4:45 p.m. Is that correct?

[Tom Rosser, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Even though we're scheduled until 5 p.m., we'll stop at around 4:45 p.m. That should get us through two rounds, certainly, if the last meeting was any basis.

Don't forget, that we have committee business following this. We'll get into our study and we'll get into witnesses at that point.

In the meantime, as was scheduled, we have departmental officials: Arran McPherson, Tom Rosser, and Kevin Stringer, from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

Mr. Rosser, I understand you will be speaking on behalf of the group.

[Tom Rosser]

I will, with your permission, Mr. Chairman, make some brief introductory remarks. Then my colleagues and I will be pleased to answer any questions committee members may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

The floor is yours.

[Tom Rosser]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I wish to begin by thanking you and indeed, all committee members for inviting us to be with you today.

As the chair of the committee already said, members of the Fisheries and Oceans Canada senior management team are accompanying me today. We have Kevin Stringer, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Ecosystems and Fisheries Management, and Arran McPherson, Director General, Ecosystems and Oceans Science Sector.

As you must know, Fisheries and Oceans Canada is the main federal department responsible for managing fisheries in Canada and protecting the country's waters. Last Tuesday, our colleagues, Deputy Commissioner Jeffery Hutchinson and Mario Pelletier, talked to you about the important work being done by the Canadian Coast Guard. Today, we will focus on the department's mandate when it comes to fisheries.

Ladies and gentlemen members of the committee, we have committed to ensuring compliance with world-class standards in an industry that employs many Canadians, especially in coastal communities. Thanks to its coastline and its healthy environment, Canada has become the 7th largest exporter of fish and seafood in the world.

Internationally, there's a growing demand for sustainable fish and seafood products. Accordingly, we foresee that, at a global level, aquaculture will play a key role in this regard in terms of meeting that growing demand. We are committed to the development of the industry in a sustainable manner that protects marine ecosystems and conserves wild fish populations.

As a department, approximately 85% of our workforce is located outside the national capital region, which makes us a highly regionalized and decentralized department. We have six regions that are responsible for delivering departmental programs: Pacific, Central and Arctic, Quebec, Gulf, Maritimes, and Newfoundland and Labrador.

Honourable members, our work is grounded on sound science, forward-looking policies, and operational and service excellence in an effort to ensure that we were able to deliver on our mandate. The work that we do also enables economic prosperity across maritime sectors and fisheries, including those in local, coastal, and first nations communities.

To meet our mandate, the department supports strong economic growth in our marine and fisheries sectors to enable greater economic benefits. It supports innovation through research in key sectors, such as aquaculture and biotechnology, and contributes to a clean, healthy environment and aquatic ecosystems through habitat protection, oceans management, and ecosystems research.

Our minister, the honourable Hunter Tootoo, will appear before you in the coming weeks to discuss his mandate commitments and departmental direction. These include: increasing Canada's marine protected areas to 5% by 2017, and 10% by 2020; ensuring that we are continuing to use scientific evidence and considering climate change when advising our minister when he is making decisions affecting fish stocks and ecosystems management; continuing to work at fostering strong relations with the provinces, territories, indigenous peoples, and other stakeholders, and to co-manage our ecosystems and oceans; working with other departments and agencies to carry out key initiatives, such as reviewing Canada's environmental assessment processes, meeting the commitments of the national shipbuilding procurement strategy, improving marine safety, and examining the impact climate change is having on Arctic ecosystems; developing new programs and policies to enable strong commercial, recreational, and traditional fisheries while growing key industries; and supporting important habitat and conservation efforts.

We are very proud of our department's work, as we have made significant contributions to Canadians from coast to coast to coast. We will continue to build on our past successes, and we look forward to new accomplishments that will benefit all Canadians.

I want to thank you for this opportunity to meet with you today. We look forward to working closely with you over the coming months and years.

I will now yield the floor to my colleagues Kevin Stringer and Arran McPherson, who will provide a brief overview of their area of responsibility.

Thank you.

[Kevin Stringer, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Ecosystems and Fisheries Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

Thanks, Tom.

Very briefly, my sector is the ecosystems and fisheries management sector.

The Ecosystems and Fisheries Management Sector is responsible for operational policy, the management of programs and the daily administration of most aspects and operations vital to the department that do not come under the Coast Guard.

My sector consists of fisheries management, so managing fisheries in Canada's three coasts and our international responsibilities; fisheries protection, habitat, aquatic invasive species, and authorizations under the Fisheries Act; the oceans program, integrated management of oceans and the protected spaces strategies; aboriginal affairs, where we work with indigenous governments and groups on their fisheries and other related matters; aquaculture, as the lead federal agency for aquaculture management in Canada; small craft harbours, repair, maintenance, dredging, and related matters working with the harbour authorities in Canada's small craft harbours; aquatic species at risk, for the 111 species that are listed and advice on listing, recovery strategies, and prohibitions and permitting; licensing and planning, where we operate the national online licensing system to support fisheries and the catch certification office to enable exports; and conservation and protection, which is really the fisheries officers corps who oversee compliance strategies for all of the above.

As Tom said, like the rest of the department, the sector which I have responsibility for is 87% outside of Ottawa in regions from coast to coast to coast. It makes it a challenge, but our view is we're far richer for it and better connected to stakeholders.

We rely on partnerships with everyone, within the department, other government departments, indigenous groups, provinces and territories, key stakeholders, the fishing industry, etc. We rely first and foremost on our colleagues in science, on all of the issues that I've talked about: fisheries management, aquatic species at risk, aquaculture, etc. We depend on science advice; we're a science-based department.

I think Arran's going to say a few words about science and then throw it open for questions.

[Arran McPherson, Director General, Ecosystems Science, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

Thank you, Kevin.

Mr. Chair and committee members, thank you for inviting me to be here today to talk about the work that science does at the DFO.

There are more than 1,500 DFO science employees across the country working on board Canadian Coast Guard vessels, some of which you heard about earlier in the week, in coastal and freshwater laboratories, and in offices in regions across the country.

Through the research and monitoring activities we undertake, science supports management decisions in a number of key areas, some of which Kevin has already described.

We undertake work on the status and trends of aquatic species to inform on sustainable harvest levels and conservation objectives. We look at work to study the potential impacts of human activities on aquatic ecosystems and how changing environmental conditions are affecting the species and the ecosystems that they inhabit. Finally, by monitoring our oceans, including their physical, chemical, and biological features, we inform predictive ocean graphic models and navigational charts.

I wish to make a couple of other points. One is on the value of peer review. Peer review is really fundamental to the work of DFO science, as it ensures that we're able to provide the best available information and advice to guide decision-making. We generate more than 300 peer review pieces of advice a year, all of which are available online.

Partnerships and collaborations are very important to the work we do. Through our collaborations with all different types of research partners, we're able to leverage the data and expertise of others in the field to ensure that the work that science is doing is the best quality for the department and the Government of Canada.

With that, I'll turn it over to the Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, folks.

My apologies to my fellow colleagues. I neglected to mention that we're also going to deal with Mr. McDonald's motion that he put forward. I'm sure you've all read it by now. We're going to deal with that during committee business, after we deal with this.

Speaking of Mr. McDonald, you're up first. You have seven minutes, sir.

[Ken McDonald, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I may not need the full seven minutes, but I'll try to use it up.

Most of my questions, given that I'm from Newfoundland, will be more—

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Sorry, are you saying you want to split your time?

[Ken McDonald, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

No. I'll fill it in.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

I just had to make sure.

[Ken McDonald, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

I'll start by saying again that most of my questions will relate more to the region that I come from, Newfoundland and Labrador, and hopefully the answers will apply to there as well.

First off, in regard to the priorities of DFO when it comes to projects and funding for small craft harbours in Newfoundland and Labrador, what are the priorities in that particular source of funding in terms of Newfoundland and Labrador?

[Kevin Stringer]

I'm happy to answer that. I'll talk a little bit about small craft harbours writ large; it's a really important program.

The core program is $95 million a year. Of that, $75 million goes to repairs, maintenance, dredging, and those types of things. Again, as with all of our programs, it's really operated in the regions, including in the Newfoundland and Labrador region. Our regional headquarters in St. John's.... As in other regions across the country, we have a set of criteria, and in terms of repairs, maintenance, and dredging, there are always more requests than we have funds for, but it is a pretty substantive program. There is, as I said, $75 million across the country. I'm not sure what the specific amount for Newfoundland and Labrador is.

We work very closely in Newfoundland and Labrador with the harbour authorities, as we do elsewhere. They're an enormously important resource. For the most part, harbour authorities have been established in most of our key harbours across the country, and they really run things. They're volunteer organizations. We estimate that their volunteer work adds up to about $24 million of additional contribution.

In Newfoundland and Labrador, as elsewhere, we work with them on priorities. We have a set of criteria for projects, and the projects range. There is a large number of harbours in Newfoundland and Labrador, more than in most other areas. That's the nature of the history and the importance of the fishery, as you well know, in that province. So there's always a lot of work to do.

There are specific criteria that we apply. There's a program of works that's designed every year, and they're announced as the year goes on.

[Ken McDonald, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Looking back at the past 10 years, major cuts were made within DFO. Can you elaborate on how these cuts in funding and jobs have affected operations, again specifically as they apply to Newfoundland and Labrador?

[Tom Rosser]

I guess I'd begin by saying we didn't come with our chief financial officer today. I would anticipate that when the minister returns to speak to the main estimates, which we anticipate will happen in the next several weeks, he may be able to provide a more detailed answer than I can, certainly with respect to Newfoundland. But it is true there have been a number of reductions in the department's budget in Newfoundland and Labrador, and indeed across Canada. There were three major exercises over the past several years. We've tried to cope with those reductions through realizing efficiencies in our operations. In many cases that has proven possible.

As I believe our Coast Guard colleagues may have shared with you when they were here a couple of days ago, despite realizing those efficiencies, there have been a couple of areas where, as an organization, we have felt pressures as a result of those reductions. Some of those are common both to the Coast Guard and to DFO. For example, I believe our real property portfolio, our portfolio of assets from coast to coast to coast, is the third largest in government. These are often aging assets, and the cost of maintaining them increases over time. That has become a pressure for us.

I know that our Coast Guard colleagues have spoken as well about recapitalization of their fleet, which of course is critical to their ability to carry out their mandate, but it's also critical to our colleagues in science, as they use those Coast Guard vessels in order to undertake their work.

So yes, we have seen reductions in the order of roughly 10% of our budget over several years. We have been able to respond to those by finding efficiencies, but it has created challenges in some areas as well.

I would invite either of my colleagues to elaborate.

[Ken McDonald, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

What, if any, are your hopes for taking on more scientists in the department? According to the mandate letter, we've become more focused on science knowledge, to make decision-making based on....

What areas do you believe need the most research and attention in regard to science?

[Tom Rosser]

I will just offer an overview and then turn the floor to my colleague Arran.

Certainly one of our priorities as a department is to renew our workforce to ensure it reflects the diversity of Canada to bring new people into the organization. Our demographic is getting older. We're seeing retirements and attrition in the organization, and we view it as a priority, as I said, to recruit the best and the brightest of a new generation. That is particularly true on the science side of our organization, where I believe the demographic of our S and T professionals is even older than it is of our workforce as a whole.

The minister's mandate letter didn't talk specifically about renewing our science complement, but as the member rightly noted, it did put an emphasis on evidence-based decision-making, and on the importance of science and reinvestments in science.

I'll turn to Arran.

[Arran McPherson]

The only thing I would add to the comments that my colleague just made is that in addition to looking at the demographics of the science organization, really the scientists who join the department stay with the department. We have a cadre of scientists who are almost able to retire. The average age of those scientists is actually older than the rest of the public service and the rest of the department. I see that as independent of the mandate commitment that my colleague has already mentioned.

We'll be poised for recruiting new scientists in the future, and we'll need to look at what are the emerging areas that we'll need to reinvest in.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Mr. McDonald.

We're now going to go to Mr. Sopuck for seven minutes.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Thank you very much.

It's good to see all of you again.

I have a couple of things. In the press recently, on February 24, there was an article that was reporting on a briefing note that was given to the minister, and I'm sure you're familiar with it. It was interesting, and I want to put something on the record here. Now, this was a reporter's report on your briefing notes, so I want to make sure I'm accurate here. In the briefing note there was a byline that read “Coast Guard in dire straits”.

I went back to the testimony of the highly respected retired commissioner of the Coast Guard, Marc Grégoire, who you all remember. In testimony to our committee on December 10, 2013, I'm quoting Mr. Grégoire, who pointed out:

You're right to mention that the coast guard is cherished by this government.

It was cherished by the government that I was a part of. He went on to say:

Never in the life of the coast guard have we seen such a massive investment at one time. In the last few years, the government has invested over $6 billion, and just in budget 2012, $5.2 billion.... Yes, it's extremely encouraging to see all those investments in the coast guard, but it doesn't stop there.

Mr. Grégoire, the highly respected commissioner of the Coast Guard, made that point very clearly,clearly so I think it's disingenuous of anybody to suggest that our government shortchanged the Coast Guard.

In the same article there was a quote from the briefing note. This is the note to the minister. It said:

As minister, you are well-positioned to attest to how Canada’s fisheries are managed in an effective, science-based and sustainable manner and thus position Canadian industry to benefit from new trade....

Ms. McPherson, it's quite clear from this statement in your briefing note that Canada's fisheries were being very well managed using the highest scientific standards. Is that fair?

[Arran McPherson]

I'd have to actually defer to my colleague, who is responsible for the management of the fishery.

[Kevin Stringer]

There have been international studies that have looked at different management systems and compared Canada to our colleagues in Australia, the U.S., etc., and we do well. In the most recent one I remember—and it's not that recent—Canada was rated to be number three.

In terms of the level of science, as a manager of fisheries, as a manager of species at risk, as a manager of aquaculture, we always want more science. We will say, and we will stand by our view, that our regimes are well managed now.

Can we use more? We can always use more and there is no question. I don't think you'll find many public servants who wouldn't say that.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

I'm a fisheries biologist who's done science in the past. One trade comment to all of us is that we're always asking for more information.

I'm glad to have you state on the record that under our watch—because we were in government for the last 10 years—the scientific capability of your department, as evidenced by the state of Canada's fish stocks, was clearly not degraded.

I would assume as senior civil servants you watched the election campaign closely, which I think is important for you. You would specifically key in on any election commitments that would relate to your department's functions, and develop plans related to those statements and platforms, depending on who won the election. I wouldn't expect otherwise.

I have a quote from the Liberal platform on the Liberals' commitment to unmuzzling scientists.

We will value science and treat science with respect. We will appoint a Chief Science Officer who will ensure that government science is fully available to the public, that scientists are able to speak freely about their work, and that scientific analyses are considered when the government makes decisions.

You made a point that there are 1,500 scientists in DFO. I am assuming that based on this commitment we are now in a position to invite anyone of those scientists to appear before this committee. Is that correct?