Evidence of meeting #65 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was mpas.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Vice-President, Arctic Program, World Wildlife Fund-Canada
I don't have the experience on the other two coasts to be able to answer that question fully.
The experience that I do have would indicate that in some areas it is, and that there is certainly the need for reconciliation to give a full role to indigenous values and rights, which is very important.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
When we consider the traditional use that first nations and indigenous people have made of the ocean, we certainly had a very close look at that in Paulatuk and in Tuktoyaktuk. We have also heard, as a complaint from commercial fishermen, that the food, social, and cultural fisheries on the west coast involve very modern harvesting methods. Do you think that's really compatible, the use of modern harvesting methods and larger ships and trawling, with some of the other things that simply weren't available even a hundred years ago, certainly a thousand years ago? Do we need to step back and not just maintain that first nation and indigenous fishery, but maybe have a very close look at the methods they use, which may not be sustainable?
Vice-President, Arctic Program, World Wildlife Fund-Canada
If methods are not sustainable, they should not be used regardless of who is doing it. I would say, however, that indigenous people should not be kept in a museum in terms of their practices. They have evolved, and they should be allowed to evolve. The approaches that Inuit now take to harvesting, for instance, are not the same ones you would have seen even 30 years ago, and I think that's appropriate. If those methods of harvesting are harmful to wildlife populations or the ecosystem, then they should be adjusted.
Liberal
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
Dr. Leys, I just have a comment. You talked about stakeholder groups. I notice you didn't mention anglers or communities in your stakeholder groups. You talked about indigenous people, economists, and academics. I think it's a major omission to not have anglers and communities listed as stakeholder groups.
Dr. Sumaila, you talked about displacing people a number of times in reference to the creation of MPAs. It sounds to me like your view is that “displacing” people is a prerequisite for the establishment of MPAs. Is that correct?
Professor, Fisheries Economics Research Unit, Institute for the Oceans and Fisheries, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
No, I was talking about displacing fishing efforts in the fishing area.
Conservative
Professor, Fisheries Economics Research Unit, Institute for the Oceans and Fisheries, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
Not necessarily.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
Well, they fish in an area. I think that's parsing words a bit too much. Clearly, you're saying that the people who use that MPA have to be displaced.
Professor, Fisheries Economics Research Unit, Institute for the Oceans and Fisheries, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
In the short term, and I made it clear, you may need to cut effort, and cutting effort, everything being equal, will involve some people. But in the medium term and long term.... This is the thing—the economist doesn't just look at today. If you did that, you would never save for retirement, for example. That is the point which I think is important.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
Many fishermen have mortgages on their boats which they have to pay, and those mortgage payments are due every month. I think we need to have a lot more sympathy for the people who ply the ocean.
Mr. Crowley, your testimony was mainly aspirational, nothing that anybody could disagree with: we have to conserve fish, protect fish, and on and on. But the problem with MPA creation is the details.
From none of you did I hear a lot of details, apart from trawling and the sponges, which I thought was very well presented. Say you have an MPA in a shipping lane. The sponges at the bottom of the ocean are protected, but the shipping lane needs to be there for economic reasons. Would an MPA automatically exclude a shipping lane, given that the predilection of most environmental groups is to completely eliminate all human activity?
Mr. Crowley.
Vice-President, Arctic Program, World Wildlife Fund-Canada
We certainly did not say we should eliminate all human activity. We should eliminate human activity that isn't compatible with the conservation objectives of the MPA.
Vice-President, Arctic Program, World Wildlife Fund-Canada
As a rule of thumb, we would say that seismic exploration for oil and gas is not compatible with an MPA, full stop. When it comes to other activities, we have to look at the conservation objectives.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
In British Columbia, for example, the recreational salmon fishery is worth about $500 million a year. They harvest 20% of the catch of the commercial fishery. For 20% of the fish, they're five times the value. What has happened to salmon fishing on both coasts is that the ethic of catch and release has really taken off. The hooking mortality rate of released fish is about 5%, so a very gentle activity like catch-and-release angling should be allowed in most MPAs.
Mr. Crowley.
Vice-President, Arctic Program, World Wildlife Fund-Canada
I would say you have to look to the conservation objective of that MPA. If it's not incompatible, then that's fine.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
Yes, but this is about the take. If you have an activity that is essentially no take....
Dr. Sumaila, what would your view on that be?
Professor, Fisheries Economics Research Unit, Institute for the Oceans and Fisheries, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
The key thing is whether the activity impacts the ecosystem or the fishery. Catch and release is better than catch and take home, but we also know that there's mortality involved with that.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
The studies show it's between 0% and 5%. I checked it.
Professor, Fisheries Economics Research Unit, Institute for the Oceans and Fisheries, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
Yes. There is that, if you can live with that, and maybe that's okay, but it depends on the objective, as he said.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
On the issue of oil and gas, given that we have many oil and gas facilities off the east coast in particular, can you definitively quantify the impact those oil and gas rigs have had on fish populations? The cod are recovering. Seal numbers are exploding. Give me some numbers, not just opinions, on the effect of oil and gas facilities on fish stocks.
Ms. Kuehnemund, in your testimony, I think to the environment committee in May last year, you were very down on these oil and gas facilities, so I'd like from you some quantifiable evidence of the damage that these do to fish stocks.
Sigrid Kuehnemund Lead Specialist, Oceans Program, World Wildlife Fund-Canada
I don't have any quantifiable numbers on the effects or impacts of oil and gas activities on the ecosystem, but there are very strong signs to show that there are effects from both seismic exploration and also exploitation in terms of production and drilling. There's certainly a risk of harm from oil spills to the marine environment and to the ecosystems. There's a benthic impact in terms of drilling, in terms of the physical displacement of the sea floor and disruption of that immediate environment. There are concerns in terms of seismic effects certainly for large marine mammals, regarding hearing loss and impairment, and catchability of fish for sure. They often move out of an area, so it often impacts the economics of fishing, not only the environment.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
I am quite surprised that you are unable to provide quantifiable evidence. What I heard just now were opinions, and we cannot base the terms and conditions of an MPA on opinions. You made the point that scientists say that there are impacts. Well, I would expect someone like yourself, who's worked on this for quite a while, would have those numbers.
I find in the testimony throughout this effort that we're working on now, the lack of numbers and quantification, and the lack of detail on what has been recommended for an MPA to be distressing, because the government's in a position to make some very serious decisions. These decisions have to be based on numbers.
Lead Specialist, Oceans Program, World Wildlife Fund-Canada
I appreciate that those decisions have to be based in sound science, and I would be happy to provide the committee with some objective, quantifiable evidence of the impacts of oil and gas activities on the ecosystem.
