Evidence of meeting #82 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was mpa.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON
When the people you were working with decided that a MPA was needed, did you ever just pick a number out of the air and say, “We have to do it this way”? Or was it always based on science?
Executive Director, Harte Research Institute for Gulf of Mexico Studies, Texas A&M University-Corpus Christi, As an Individual
Well, if you're establishing some percentages, then to me that makes some sense to me that you have a goal in mind and it needs to be stated. To be just looking at percentages, no, I think that's not an approach. I'm not saying that those who are using those percentages aren't looking at it that way. I certainly would not do that, just setting a certain percentage aside. Unless you can describe the objective, the goal you're trying to reach, and why that percentage has an impact—and that's typically scientific data—then no, you wouldn't do that.
Conservative
Executive Director, Harte Research Institute for Gulf of Mexico Studies, Texas A&M University-Corpus Christi, As an Individual
I'm not going to say no anywhere, but in cases I've worked with, I feel that the sunsetting issue is a way to make sure that attention is being paid to what you were trying to achieve in those MPAs, and also to continue to basically aim at agencies that may be responsible for that—the agencies that collect the data and information that would justify an MPA's continuation or not—to make sure they put in the resources and time to continue to look at and justify that need.
Conservative
Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON
There are a lot of claims being made out there, or that have been made, portraying MPAs as basically a solution to habitat and fishery management problems, problems that may or may not actually exist. How do we distinguish between credible science and bogus science?
Executive Director, Harte Research Institute for Gulf of Mexico Studies, Texas A&M University-Corpus Christi, As an Individual
Well, the base idea for that is that we use peer-reviewed literature—that type of literature—and then you have a better feel that whatever information has come out of it has been looked at in an objective way. You start with that business first, and then there's the next part of that. Sometimes that's not available, and then it's just about having a transparent process. Everyone lays out on the table what they know and what they have in a transparent way and they allow others to look at that. Sometimes you do have to go that way.
Conservative
Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON
In your role when you were creating MPAs, during the process did you ever have outside groups or specific groups or organizations that basically tried to hijack the process or whatever? If so, how did you handle that?
Executive Director, Harte Research Institute for Gulf of Mexico Studies, Texas A&M University-Corpus Christi, As an Individual
Yes, and in particular, for the types of MPAs I've worked with, commercial fisheries always wanted to do that. Of course, whether they knew that they would be dealing with nurseries there.... That happened. Basically, you have to make sure that all of the stakeholders at the table are given equal time and access. That's what we do. We just try to make sure that we know the range of stakeholders and have them all given access.
Conservative
Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON
I have one last question. In your experience with MPAs and fisheries in general, do you know of a case where recreational fishing was the main perpetrator or the main cause of the collapse or potential collapse, say, of a fishery? Do you know of that ever being the case? We all know what overfishing by commercial fisheries can do, but on recreational....
Executive Director, Harte Research Institute for Gulf of Mexico Studies, Texas A&M University-Corpus Christi, As an Individual
No. My experience has been that overfishing issues have been more at the commercial level and those types of things, not in recreational fishing. That's certainly been my experience. I'm not going to say that it does not exist in other places, but fortunately I've not had to deal with that.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Scott Simms
Thank you, Dr. McKinney.
Thank you, Larry.
Mr. McDonald, please, for five minutes.
Liberal
Ken McDonald Liberal Avalon, NL
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have a couple of really quick questions, and then I'll share my time with Mr. Finnigan.
Mr. Lansbergen, does your industry represent anyone involved in the aquaculture industry?
President, Fisheries Council of Canada
No. Well, I guess the short answer is no, until one of my companies launches a joint venture with an aquaculture company. There is a separate association.
Liberal
Ken McDonald Liberal Avalon, NL
Okay.
On the persons you represent, I know for a fact that you represent the offshore fleet that fishes off our coast. How small a fleet do you represent? Do you represent fishers who are involved in the 40-and-under fleet, say, in more of the inshore fishery versus the offshore?
President, Fisheries Council of Canada
To be completely honest, I'm not sure how many of my members have any inshore boats. Certainly my members who have the processing plants onshore are supplied by the smaller fishermen, if that answers your question.
Liberal
Ken McDonald Liberal Avalon, NL
Yes, to some extent.
You would be more about the bigger boats that go offshore to catch, even though they bring their catch inshore to be processed. It wouldn't be the inshore fishers that live in the communities and depend on that fishery for that community they reside in.
President, Fisheries Council of Canada
Certainly the harvesting capacity would be larger from my offshore members, yes.
January 30th, 2018 / 9:55 a.m.
Liberal
Pat Finnigan Liberal Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB
Thank you.
Thanks, everyone, for being here. I would really like to ask everyone some questions, but I know my time is limited.
Mr. Lansbergen, your background in forestry is important to me. Full disclosure: I certainly support the fisheries in my area because it's a major economic driver. However, I would say that some would argue that the best forest management practice is maybe not sustainable, that instead of a forest, we now have a garden, where one species is the main goal and it's what we want to harvest. How does that relate to the ocean?
We have large species that we want to protect, and they're very obvious, like the Atlantic right whale that is having problems, but there are also a lot of smaller organisms that are also important but that we sometimes don't see.
How would you describe your experience in the forestry compared to what we're trying to do in the ocean?
President, Fisheries Council of Canada
That's a good question.
First, my response on the forestry practices is that in Canada we operate in a natural forest and that a lot of the management practices and planning try to mimic that natural dynamic. The harvesting is done in such a way as to mimic natural disturbances, so that the natural character of the forest is maintained. That's quite different from other jurisdictions. How well we do that may certainly be debatable.
I'm still relatively new to fisheries and it's difficult for me to give a fulsome response. From what I've seen, we do a pretty good job of trying to manage the individual stocks. Are we taking a fulsome, holistic approach with how that individual stock interacts with other species in the same habitat? I really don't know enough at this point to give you an accurate response.
Liberal
Pat Finnigan Liberal Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB
I'll maybe do a follow-up. You're talking about the MSC. I understand they do a great job in making sure their harvest is sustainable. However, there are some MSC-certified products that some would argue are not sustainable, like trawling for sea cucumbers and scallops, for example. How do we make sure that the seal represents a sustainable harvest?
President, Fisheries Council of Canada
I think the certification standards have to stand on their own merit. If the certification council is independently governed and its standard is developed in an open, transparent, informed process, then people will accept and have confidence in it. Whether they like everything about it or not, I think people will always find something they would care to complain about and say that it's not quite good enough, that it doesn't meet their expectations. We all have individual perspectives.
Just the fact that we have such strong certification levels in Canada, where only 10% of the ocean's fisheries are certified to any standard, I think speaks in itself to our strong performance.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Scott Simms
Thank you, Mr. Finnigan.
Mr. Donnelly, ask a quick question. Certainly no more than two quick questions.
NDP
Fin Donnelly NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Thanks Mr. Chair.
I was going to allow maybe 30 seconds for each witness for their final recommendations or comments to the committee.
Dr. McKinney, as you've given us more recommendations in your testimony, which are very helpful, I will maybe start with Ms. Jessen. Do you have any final comments or recommendations?