Fisheries Committee on Feb. 1st, 2018

[Robert Lambert]

We look at a couple of things. They're based on ecologically sensitive areas, so we worked with the science. Science identifies where the sensitive areas are, and we look at those and at what needs to be protected. Once we look at that, the consultation begins with industry and others impacted and the general public.

We sit down and have those discussions. We'll say, “If you were to protect 100%, this is what you would need to do.” We get input from impacted users who say, “Well, if you do that, this is going to be the negative impact on us.” We try to reach that balance between obtaining the ecological benefits and minimizing—not eliminating, but minimizing—the socio-economic impact on user groups such as fishers, indigenous groups, and that type of thing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Let's hear from the west coast.

[Andrew Thomson]

I would add that part of the value of the consultation process is to ensure that we have a greater understanding of the activities that the sector groups—the fishers—are actually doing and what impact those specific activities may have on the environmentally sensitive areas of the proposed MPAs. That part of the consultative process, I think, helps us in terms of determining what the actual impact may be of those types of activities.

To answer your question a bit further, I think, that's to say that you establish goals of protecting or maintaining a level of protection on the environmentally sensitive areas, and then, of course, part of that, once an MPA or an area of interest is established, is to have a program to evaluate whether or not the program you've put in place is in fact protecting or managing those environmentally sustainable areas.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you.

We're now going to Mr. Donnelly, please, for seven minutes.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our departmental officials for being with us this morning.

We've heard a lot about how important consultation is and about the length of time to create an MPA. We've heard it can take seven to 10 years to protect marine areas. How will the department speed up that process to get a target of, say, five years for a protected area?

[Brett Gilchrist]

I think our colleagues from the aquatic ecosystem branch are probably more suited to talk to the marine protected areas. The other effect of area-based conservation measures, which again are the fisheries-specific tool under the Fisheries Act to address and protect ecosystem features and species, is an example of how—working with stakeholders and partners based on best available science and the experience of fish harvesters and the contribution of their information—we can identify measures on a shorter term, as we did in 2017. Marine protected areas, again, are probably best addressed by the aquatic ecosystem branch, which I believe we have in the room but not at the table here.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Does anyone else want to add anything on achieving timelines and efficiency within a shorter period? What we're hearing is people like to be consulted and not cut off, but of course, they don't want to take forever because in seven to 10 years, things change.

[Randy Jenkins]

Yes. I could just add, as we've seen this year, there are measures taken under the Fisheries Act, so it's a stepwise process and they may or may not result in a longer-term MPA, which would give you the additional consultation. A process to establish an MPA itself is somewhat different from the fisheries measures that we have talked about, although the concept is very similar. That is why we separated it. The oceans group would be responsible for MPAs, and the resource management group, which we are largely part of, is responsible more for the, I'll say, interim...it's not necessarily intended to be an interim MPA, but it has the same outcome in that you achieve closures through consultations. It doesn't necessarily stifle the process that would normally go on for an MPA to be established. There could be additional consultations or additional feedbacks or considerations at a later time.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Lambert.

[Robert Lambert]

I would also throw in that there are proposed amendments, of course, to the Oceans Act that talk about things like freezing the footprint, and that would speed up the process so that you would be able to offer protections before the actual MPA was established.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

With consultation, is that helpful or how does that impact users?

[Robert Lambert]

I think how that when you freeze the footprint, any activities that are currently occurring are allowed as those discussions are ongoing. I think that might help in that regard.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

We've also heard about the importance of monitoring and enforcement. I'm wondering if anyone can speak to the lack of monitoring and enforcement that currently exists.

With the aim and objective to double the amount of protected area on the country's coasts in marine areas, will there be a corresponding ramping up of monitoring and enforcement? Or is that seen as important by the department?

[Robert Lambert]

I can start on it.

Monitoring and enforcement obviously are very important parts of any management measures when you're talking about prohibition, closed areas, and that type of thing. A lot of the areas we're talking about now for MPAs are large areas that are offshore and so on, and some people have some concerns about that.

As a department, we currently have the resources and the technology to monitor enforcement in these areas, such as air surveillance programs. We have quite a bit of experience with that on the east coast. We will have more areas to monitor, but it can be done. There may be more resources required. As we establish MPAs that's always a consideration, if there's more money required for enforcement. The actual technology is there, so vessel monitoring systems, aerial surveillance, and those types of things are available now.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Lamirande or Mr. Thomson, maybe you might want to jump in on this one.

From your experience working with first nations in terms of protecting marine ecosystems, can you outline some of the most critical issues?

[Robert Lamirande]

I think in terms of specificity, Andy can speak to it.

For indigenous groups, the protection of existing resources is often paramount, in terms of protecting the sustainability of resources and access to them. Looking at it in terms of the objectives of those specific MPAs, and then in terms of their ability to access resources within those, are factors to consider.

Andy.

[Andrew Thomson]

I would just add that I think one of the critical things indigenous groups bring forward to us is how we include or consider some of their traditional ecological knowledge in our consultative process, in terms of what areas they consider to be ecologically sensitive, in addition to other science views as to what is ecologically sensitive.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you.

Ms. Jordan, you have seven minutes, please.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you to the officials for being here today.

My first questions are for Mr. Lambert and Mr. Thomson, going to both coasts.

Recognizing that this report we're putting together right now is going to, hopefully, come with some recommendations to guide the process, to make sure that we have it right whenever we are designating MPAs, both of you have been involved in the MPA process on your coasts. If you could make one recommendation for what you would like to see done better, what would it be?

Mr. Lambert, I'll start with you.

[Robert Lambert]

I guess our most recent experience is of the need to consult as broadly as possible; and as to the people we are consulting with, it's very important to have the right people there.

For example, when we're talking about closed areas, if you start off, quite often you'll get representatives of fishers but you don't necessarily get individual fishers. What we find is that, when you get to the end of the day, the people who are consulted, who maybe know the most about a particular area or that type of thing, whether it's fishers or indigenous folks, that's where the decisions are actually made.

As we go through the consultations, I would say consult as widely as we can; and as quickly as we can, get to the individuals with the most knowledge.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Thomson.

[Andrew Thomson]

Yes, I would agree. I think a broad consultation strategy should very clearly lay out how you go about it—plan the time frame, set up meetings, etc.—so the client sectors have information ahead of time to plan to be able to attend the meetings and contribute meaningfully. I think those things would help to have a better-informed consultative process.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you.

Mr. Jenkins, I'll go to you next with regard to the question started by Mr. Donnelly. I'd like to move a little bit further into it. We've heard in a number of cases where it's great to have an MPA, but if it's not enforced, why bother? Do you feel the department has enough resources to make sure that, when we do designate MPAs, we are making sure they are enforced and that people are following the rules?

[Randy Jenkins]

Unfortunately I'm not the enforcement person. We do the resource management side and I think Darren Goetze, the DG of conservation and protection, was already before the panel. I can only—

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

From a resource management side, do you feel there is enough money available to it?