Fisheries Committee on Feb. 1st, 2018

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for mentioning the area that wasn't successful.

Thanks to the witnesses for being here.

Could we ask the DFO officials to provide the information on that—I'm sorry, I didn't catch the name of the one you mentioned that wasn't successful—so that we can look at that information, too, as part of our study? I think it's equally beneficial to look at what worked and what didn't work.

I'm just curious. How long a process was the development of the Eastport MPA from the time the fishermen started thinking that they should do something to the time that the MPA was actually implemented?

[Robert Lambert]

I think the process actually started before the MPA discussion started. As mentioned, in the early nineties, fishers noticed a change in the abundance of lobster due to the pressure put on it. Before there was actual discussion about an MPA, there was a management plan put in place, a joint agreement with fishers. That's when there were closures put in under the Fisheries Act. Some of the things described by Mr. Feltham with regard to access to the area were also put in at that point. That was established, I believe, in 1997. Then as the discussion on MPAs started, it was decided that that management process was a good candidate now to be taken over as an MPA.

The discussion actually started in the early to mid-nineties, and later in the nineties, the joint management plan was put in place. That then morphed into the actual MPA in 2005.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

So, it was seven to 10 years?

[Robert Lambert]

It was quite a long process, yes.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

But it was successful?

[Robert Lambert]

Yes.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Okay. It's just because part of what we're studying is the accelerated process that we seem to be looking at now and whether it is going to be as workable, whether it is going to be as successful.

Another thing we're looking at in this study is what goals were established to begin with and how they are measured in that process. Maybe I can get a response from both you and Mr. Feltham.

[Robert Lambert]

The main objective, as described earlier on, was a viable lobster fishery, basically, in the Eastport Peninsula area. That was the goal. The measures that have been put in place since include science programs that measure the catch per unit effort, that is, how abundant the lobsters are. There are also tagging programs in place to study the size and movement of lobsters inside and outside the MPA.

The science work that has been done there is used to measure against the goal of a viable lobster fishery. I think the results of that show that the catch per unit effort is stable, which is what the goal was, and the science supports that.

[George Feltham]

The increased landings and harvesters.... As I said earlier, we don't have a Nova Scotia fishery. We're on the northern edge of the movement of lobster, so our fishery is very small compared to some other areas. However, there was an increase in landings. Landings increased from 25% to 30% over a matter of six or seven years.

The other thing that you have to realize is that most of the time we're in a southerly drift. With the increased size in lobster, that is, egg-bearing lobster, they're carrying more and healthier eggs, but the drift of our eggs is to the south. A lot of the benefit from our closed area, when it comes to egg dispersal from the lobster, goes to people further south. What we've seen in the last number of years is that to the south of us there has been an increase in lobster catches as well. We can't actually prove it in science—we did some tests jointly with scientists trying to get where the drift would go—but we believe that it's partly because of our closed areas that they're getting better production, better catch rates, now to the south of us because of increased egg production in our MPAs in our area.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Can you give me any indication—both of you or all three of you—as to the amount of area that was closed or is an MPA, in percentages, comparable to the area that may be benefiting from it? You've mentioned that you believe there are benefits further south as the drift happens. How much area has been set aside in the MPA percentage-wise out of the total area that benefits from it?

[Robert Lambert]

The size of the actual Eastport MPA is 2.1 kilometres. It's around two islands, so it's a relatively small area.

Science has been done through the tagging program, as mentioned, about how much lobsters move around inside and outside. It has shown that lobsters don't move a tremendous amount—that is, individual lobsters—but as Mr. Feltham points out, the increase in the size of lobsters basically means that for the lobsters inside that small MPA, the larger the lobster, the more eggs they carry, and the stronger those eggs are. As those eggs are released, they get carried with the drift and then they drift out.

Recently, science has expanded the areas that are being looked at, because that was one of the things that came up during the discussions about the science being collected: that it would be good to have more areas studied, if you will, outside—

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Just so we don't run out of time, you have a relatively small area protected, but because it was identified as a highly productive area it benefits a much bigger area overall?

[Robert Lambert]

Exactly.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Size doesn't matter so much as biodiversity. If I were to say that, would that be correct?

[Robert Lambert]

I'm not sure if you can create the biodiversity argument there. This is about the movement of lobsters as opposed to the—

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Mr. Feltham, I see that you want to speak.

[George Feltham]

Yes. On the purpose of an MPA, we have to realize that this one—even though there are other species there—was directed for lobsters, but if you want an MPA that is going to cover all areas, all fishing, then you would need a larger MPA than what we have. I'll go back to the importance of mapping historical fishing activity to know what you're getting, because that's how fishers knew what areas were capable of handling the large lobsters; they had the information from years of fishing. The mapping process of fishing activity would be very important to be able to get that diversity in closed areas.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

You've identified a key area for a key species.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Mr. Donnelly, please, for seven minutes.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our guests for being here and providing their testimony.

Maybe I can start with you, Mr. Feltham. You mentioned that everyone would support MPAs but nobody wants one in their backyard. If we talk about fisheries management practices, what would you suggest are the best management tools to improve the fishery stocks? With MPAs being one, what else do you think would work to bring fish back?

[George Feltham]

When you say “fish”, define “fish”.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Well, you can choose any commercial fish, any recreational fish, or any other fish species on either coast. I was also going to broaden it to the marine ecosystem, because obviously we're not just concerned about fish. We're concerned about the marine ecosystem and about fish habitat, things that fish feed on, etc. The idea of MPAs is to look at how we protect those so that we get fish benefiting, whether it's a commercial fish or a non-commercial fish. We're trying to find out what are the things that work to help recover fish.

[George Feltham]

We have a number of management tools in place now through the department.

You didn't really define “fishermen”. I'll speak on crab for a minute. When we harvest crab, we don't have soft-shell crab. We harvest all hard-shell crab. We don't harvest any females. We harvest all males; all the females are put back. Water temperature plays a major role. We can do all the management we want, and if we have the wrong water temperature, we're not going to be able to correct that.

It's unbelievable that when conservation measures are in place when it comes to crab you have a decline in your crab stocks from fishing activity. I know that plays a role.

On cod, science and fishers are at a headlock when it comes to cod, but measures are in place. You're right about stepping outside of the fish because it all takes place in one place. You fish and you have prime fishing areas, including corals. The ecosystem is all balanced there, and it has to be balanced. People accept that when it comes to certain species but they don't accept it when it comes to others, so we have to be careful.

We can do what we like, and if we don't harvest in a way, if we don't watch who and what is harvesting, then all our measures are in vain. As a fisher, I take offence sometimes. Back in the early 1980s our seal population was estimated at three million. The last figure I heard was that it could be as high as 11 million. Just do the figures. That's an eight-million seal increase. They don't eat hamburgers. They eat fish, and the capelin fishery is one of the ones that comes under attack. The capelin fishery is very important. Seals primarily feed off capelin but no one will every say that the seals are depleting the capelin stocks. They say it's the fishermen depleting the capelin stock, but we take roughly 1% of that stock.

I don't know if I'm answering your question or not.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

I think so. You definitely said water temperature, responsible harvesting, and other factors.

You also mentioned that the education program is critical. Can you describe your education program and the money you need for it, the support resources and that kind of thing to do an effective education program in communities?

[George Feltham]

I had a friend in wildlife who was working at one point in time to re-establish the eider duck colony on the Great Northern Peninsula. This was a few years back. I said to him, how in the hell are you going to get that to work? He said, quite easy. Poaching was a problem with the eider ducks. He said, quite easy. I said, what do you mean? He said, we know who the poachers are. We'll hire all their wives to rear up the ducklings and they will stop them from touching the ducklings. You have to be innovative in what you do here and sometimes you have to think out of the box, but you can get it to work.