Fisheries Committee on July 23rd, 2020

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thanks, sir.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

We'll now go to Madame Gill, for six minutes or less please.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank all the witnesses for joining us today. Your comments are very informative, so I appreciate your input.

I'll try to sum up what's been said, to the extent possible.

Most of you mentioned the lack of funding preventing you from achieving your objectives and the need for up-to-date data. You also talked about the Cohen report. I believe Mr. Hill said that, even if the recommendations were implemented, it wouldn't achieve the objectives. It was also said that efforts were either too slow or insufficient. Mr. Zeman even brought up transparency. I'd say that just about covers what we've heard today.

I'm going to give the witnesses the rest of my speaking time.

I know this is a highly complex issue, with different bodies of water and different species. What steps do we need to take as a matter of priority, to have a positive and relatively long-term impact? Feel free to include funding in that.

Mr. Hill, Mr. Zeman, Mr. Hwang and Mr. Walters, the floor is yours.

[Aaron Hill]

I think it's an excellent question. The place to start, really, is individual recovery plans for the endangered populations, as required under the wild salmon policy, the sustainable fisheries framework and the new Fisheries Act. Through that process, guided by science, we can identify the measures that will be of greatest benefit to the individual populations. There's so much diversity among the populations that different things will benefit different populations at different times and places. That is the way to tackle it.

[Jason Hwang]

I can build on what Mr. Hill has used for his response. It is about taking action.

We have lots of plans on the shelf. They are acted on in components that are convenient, generally in the short term and not funded for the duration and for the completeness that we need to be able to manage well and actually do the things that are required to facilitate recovery. There is a significant lack of resources, coordination and accountability, not because the people involved aren't good at what they do, but the system as a whole is not getting us the results that we need.

[Carl Walters]

I would have two top priorities right now for funding in DFO.

One of them is to restore and improve the escapement monitoring system. There are large parts of the coast for which we don't really have any idea of how many fish are making it to spawn and what the status of the large proportion of B.C.'s small salmon stock is because the escapement monitoring program has deteriorated so far.

The second major priority I would see right now is for some careful research on selective fishing practices. This was brought up a few minutes ago in talking about the idea of using beach seines, for example, in the Fraser River to allow selective harvest. There was recently some interesting physiological research showing that when you beach seine a bunch of salmon shortly after they've entered fresh water from the ocean and then turn them loose, that's the end of them—they die anyway. That's a so-called selective fishing practice that's liable to do more harm than good. We need to understand how to do selective fisheries, and we don't.

[Jesse Zeman]

Yes, the issue of selective fisheries on the Fraser is a huge one. What Dr. Walters is saying is completely accurate. Beach seining involves 30%-60% mortality. The way it looks, these fish die afterwards. Pound traps look like the way of the future.

Again, DFO in that case is authorizing a fishery using its own model, which was found to be scientifically invalid, which is killing endangered fish using methods that they call selective and which the research shows are not selective.

In terms of the department, these systemic issues.... We talk about east coast cod, we talk about interior Fraser steelhead, and we talk about interior Fraser coho. The agency is not structurally built to conserve and restore salmon. The agency is built to manage fishing. Those are two entirely distinct outcomes. One involves trying to find fishing opportunities; the other involves taking care of salmon.

Currently, management is carrying the day, and fishing is carrying the day, and the people who are scientists inside DFO are not able to control the outcome on sustainability. There's a systemic, root problem that is fundamental within the agency, which you don't see in other natural resource agencies. What happens is that we end up managing these fish out of existence through fishing.

[Jason Hwang]

Mr. Chair, if there is a little bit more time, another piece I'd like to highlight is the need for the federal and provincial governments to co-operate.

While the federal government has a mandate for salmon, the provincial government has the constitutional authority for land and water. You can't be successful in getting what you need for salmon without being successful at managing land and water in ways that lead to those sustainable outcomes. Federal and provincial co-operation is an absolute necessity to get that outcome.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you for that. You're almost right on the mark at six minutes.

We'll now go to Mr. Johns for six minutes or less, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you all for your testimony.

I'll start with you, Mr. Hwang.

You talked about harvest, habitat and hatcheries. Can you speak about the scale on which the government has rolled out...? You cited the BC Salmon Restoration Fund and highlighted the importance of that funding. We saw in the first round that there was $340 million in applications just for the first round alone. The government rolled out less than half of the fund on that round.

Can you talk about the scale that's needed and how far off the mark the governments are right now for what's necessary?

We heard from Chief Patrick Harry and Greg Witzky yesterday about their applications. Many of them have been denied. They're saying that we're looking at extinction if we're not investing in restoration and habitat protection right now.

[Jason Hwang]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Johns.

I would say, just to preface my response, that there are some situations in which there is a critical urgency because of the state of the populations. The Big Bar problem has highlighted some of those things. There were problems of that nature even without Big Bar. Mr. Zeman spoke to the steelhead problems; there's been a southern BC chinook problem; there have been sockeye problems and coho problems.

I believe there are some things that need to be done fairly urgently that would require a significant investment now, and there are things that need to be done long term that require ongoing, substantive investment.

In relation to the scale of the BCSRIF, the kinds of numbers that were put into it—approximately $140 million over five years—are, I would suggest, in the range of an order of magnitude below what is needed to do all of the things that I think the collection of witnesses today have spoken about. We need to do the science, assessment and monitoring; we need to look after habitat; we need to manage hatcheries; and we need to properly manage harvest.

You wouldn't be able to do all of those things even if you put an additional $50 million a year into the system for 10 years. It would be a good start, but when you're talking on that scale of $500 million, it would be a target that wouldn't even let you do everything that every witness today has spoken to.

I hope that gives you some degree of answer to your question.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Do you feel that there's a sense of urgency from the government? They're looking at Big Bar, and we see this crisis that's taking place, but really, in the crisis before that, we had half of the lowest return in recorded history. Do you feel that the government is responding to this quickly enough?

In regard to Big Bar—maybe you could speak about this—we saw the delay in the rollout of the tendering process and the work that was necessary there. Tuesday we heard from Kiewit, and they were citing that tendering would need to go up now for the engineering to put in fish ladders and whatnot to be in place for next season—immediately, almost.

Do you feel that the government is moving at the pace that's necessary to save those stocks for next season?

[Jason Hwang]

I'm very pleased to see the work that's going on this summer. They are ready for when the fish get there. The fish are having trouble because of the naturally high water, but they're in a good place right now.

What I am not sure about, and will have some concern over until I am able to see the action, is what is in place to get ready for the fall and winter to take advantage of the low-water period, when additional work can be done. The problem isn't solved yet. To take best advantage of the work season, the financial approvals need to be in place and the procurement system needs to be activated. I don't know if this is in place or not, but a high priority should be placed on having this done very much in advance so that those kinds of administrative functions are not a delay to taking action on the ground.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Mr. Hill, you talked about indigenous fishing rights and the importance of resolving the outstanding issues with Canada and indigenous communities. At the last meeting, we heard from Chief Harry and Mr. Witzky about the lack of resources for indigenous communities to help support fisheries management, restoration and habitat protection, implementing indigenous and traditional knowledge and working with DFO and the province.

Can you talk about the importance of resolving those issues, recognizing those rights and resourcing the tables that are currently ongoing?

[Aaron Hill]

I think you've said it well. There is a tremendous need for more resources.

I'll talk about habitat. In terms of protecting habitat, some of the most exciting and positive things happening right now are happening through first nations-led land use planning, which is prioritizing land use decisions and protecting and restoring critical habitat for salmon and other species. There is a critical need for more resources and more capacity within first nations and from all levels of government to allow participation and to move those processes forward.

On the fisheries side of things, as Mr. Zeman and others have said, there's a tremendous need to advance stock-selective fishing going forward so that we can harvest more from abundant populations and have a lower impact on endangered populations. First nations are going to be the leaders in that.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I know the Nuu-chah-nulth are doing some important work, but again, their applications are being denied. Of course, they have outstanding issues with the court case.

You talked about aquaculture. Can you speak a bit more about the disconnect between the government's promise in the campaign to move to closed containment by 2025 and their promise now to just have a plan, and the impact that's having on wild stocks?

[Aaron Hill]

We were excited to hear the promise, and I think it's great that it's in the mandate letter. We heard some backpedalling on how quickly that would happen, but we understand there's still a commitment in place.

We encourage the government to move forward with that as soon as possible, in tandem with implementing Cohen commission recommendation number 19 to move farms out of the Discovery Islands by this year if they can't show that they're not creating harm to wild salmon. The sea life monitoring of the Discovery Islands and other areas of the coast where salmon farms are in place this year is showing a tremendous impact, with high levels of lice. There's a lice epidemic, and they need to deal with it by implementing that recommendation immediately.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Hill and Mr. Johns.

We'll now go to our second round of questioning. We'll start with Mr. Fast for five minutes or less, please.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Dr. Walters, I noted your comment on predation. One of the work items that our committee will be undertaking in the future is a study on predation on both the west coast and the east coast. We hope to have you come back to committee to talk about predation specifically.

In the meantime, I note that three of our witnesses—Mr. Zeman, Mr. Hwang and Mr. Hill—expressly referenced dysfunction in DFO, and Dr. Walters implied it. Mr. Hwang referenced an independent oversight body.

I want to throw this question out to all of our witnesses. What structural changes would you make to DFO to make it more responsive to stakeholders and more effective in addressing the very real challenges facing our west coast salmon stocks?

Any of you can respond.

[Carl Walters]

I'll start. Having dealt with DFO a lot over the years, and having lots of its people being students of mine, I think the basic structural problem is there's no accountability. So this pinniped harvesting proposal is allowed to sit on one DFO manager's desk long enough to have probably cost the sport fishing industry of B.C. something like $40 million, and yet he's not in any way held responsible for that inaction. That's happening, whether it's initiatives like the one I'm talking about, habitat industries or fisheries—

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

The interpreter is indicating that, in order for her to do her job, it would be helpful if Mr. Walters brought his microphone closer to his mouth. The sound isn't coming through very well.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Mr. Chair, I did not understand what the interpreter was saying. It wasn't being translated.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I didn't hear any interpretation on your intervention, Madame Gill. So if you—

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

The interpreter mentioned that she couldn't interpret because she was having trouble hearing what the witness was saying. She would like Mr. Walters to bring his microphone closer to his mouth.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

I did want to hear from the other three witnesses as well. What are the structural changes you would make if you had a chance to restructure or reform DFO? Be very quick, because I have a couple of other questions.