Evidence of meeting #15 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fish.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:50 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Thank you to all the witnesses for their important testimony.
I'll start with Ms. Scarfo. You talked about the disaster of the salmon on the west coast. Do you believe that the government should be declaring this a salmon emergency right now?
12:55 p.m.
President, West Coast Trollers Association, As an Individual
Absolutely. I can't see how you could avoid doing that. Between Big Bar and all of the other elements that we face, and the conflicting interests among user groups, if you don't declare it an emergency, you're basically just pitting the last of the users out here against each other and creating disharmony, and not helping with reconciliation in any way, shape or form.
12:55 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
If the government were to declare a salmon emergency, what would you like to see come with that?
12:55 p.m.
President, West Coast Trollers Association, As an Individual
Well, I would like to see enough funds, first and foremost, to help the fishermen and the infrastructure that we need to support the industry into the future.
We need a discussion on what the goal in managing fisheries on the west coast is, which has some guiding principles and engages, in an honest way, a real consultation with not just the industry participants who remain but with the coastal communities, and within the region, the people who are affected by the declining fishery.
Create that vision so that we can then move forward. You can't move forward if you don't have a vision. Right now we don't have that vision of what's expected because, basically, what we hear is the vision is dishonest because it's not achievable.
12:55 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Sure, and we hear about the vision with Canada and the U.S. and the Pacific Salmon Treaty. You talked about how decades ago that money was set aside, that $30 million. Can you speak about what has happened with that money, about what that money was supposed to be for and where it's at today?
12:55 p.m.
President, West Coast Trollers Association, As an Individual
Well, the catch reduction was that rather than reduce the catch in Alaska completely or pull more dams on the Columbia, Canada took a catch reduction to accommodate the U.S., and in exchange, they provided $30 million U.S. to mitigate the impacts.
There was only one fleet that actually lost any fish or took the impacts, and that was the west coast troll fleet. The expectation was that we would be provided these funds. In conjunction with the first nations, through the aquatic management board that Dan has spoken of, we presented a comprehensive plan 10 or 12 years ago as to how to spend that money, and how not to just dissolve the licences once they were bought back. You would actually bank them in the expectation that we do see a future and that we could maybe reissue these licences. There was money for enhancements, for science and for all sorts of things.
Instead of listening to the region, the department asked users who were not affected, which would be like asking P.E.I. what they should do with money that the South Shore fishermen in Nova Scotia are entitled to. That's what they did, and that's what they're doing again. They're asking fishermen from other areas what they should do with this money, who of course are saying “give it to us”, because everybody needs it.
We need a comprehensive plan, we need a vision and then we need to make those investments, particularly in promoting the Fisheries Act as the number one environmental act and that doesn't just deal with in-river habitat but with ocean conditions.
12:55 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Thank you.
Mr. Edwards, can you speak about the injustice of the Pacific Salmon Treaty and what's been done with that money and also a little bit more in depth about the West Coat Aquatic Management Board and the importance of local management boards, both to managing stocks and also to reconciliation? What needs to happen at those boards in terms of resources from the federal government?
12:55 p.m.
Fisher, West Coast Aquatic, As an Individual
That's going to be hard in a couple of minutes, but I'll try.
Basically, the board process, the idea of working together at a community level between first nations and the community fishermen and non-indigenous communities, is the heart of the idea of developing that board, in order to make sure that there's a proper management structure that would provide socio-economic benefits to the community.
On the money that Kathy has mentioned, we used the aquatic management board to put a very comprehensive plan in place. We met five times with Minister Shea at the time. Then we found out through a court case by the area G troll fishermen—when the money wasn't given to who it should have been given to—that the department had already made a decision before it even started the consultative process. It had already decided to give the money to other interests and to not use it to mitigate the damage on the west coast.
We're asking right now for the aquatic management board to hold that money in trust for the commercial fishermen and the communities out here on the west coast. We've asked the cabinet to consider that. We've said that this is critical in order to support these communities that are in a position, as Kathy said, of disaster.
On that issue of disaster relief, that's what I did back in 1999. I spent three months trying to get disaster relief funding for the collapse of the Fraser sockeye in 1999. They just refused to do it, which led to a 59-day hunger strike, which then led to a consultative review. I've been down this road before, and it's very frustrating to see it happening again and again here.
We have resources and we have the opportunity. It's just being completely denied by the existing power structure within the Pacific region.
1 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you.
We'll now go to our five-minute round. We'll start off with Mr. Fast.
1 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Let me begin by challenging Mr. Hardie's suggestion that there was a lot of conflicting evidence from our witnesses on the problems with the wild salmon fishery. That simply is not the case. In fact, there's been a great deal of consistent testimony. Indeed, except for allocation of fisheries and perhaps access to the different fisheries, there's remarkable consistency in testimony. We've heard consistently about a dysfunctional DFO. We've heard about a lack of stock assessments, failure to base decisions on science, lack of consultation with stakeholders and broken governance models. Much of that has been reaffirmed today at this meeting.
Mr. Edwards, you said that we need to dismantle the entire organization. I just want to be clear about what organization you are referring to. Are you referring to DFO's Pacific region or the regional aquatic management board or some other organization?
1 p.m.
Fisher, West Coast Aquatic, As an Individual
I was talking about the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, specifically Pacific region.
1 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
That is, of course, consistent with testimony we've heard at other meetings where we're reviewing the decline in salmon stocks.
Could you tell us what that dismantlement would look like in practice? If you dismantle, you have to replace it with something that's going to be effective. Be as brief as possible, because I have one other question.
1 p.m.
Fisher, West Coast Aquatic, As an Individual
That's a very important point.
The Government of Canada has done all kinds of reorganization. It did it with INAC recently. There are all kinds of ways to do it. Significant study has been done on proper governance models that can be utilized by government in order to put proper consultative and governance frameworks together.
B.C. has a lot of thinkers who have done that over the years. I worked with one for years, Craig Darling, who has done all kinds of work for government on how to properly re-engage government with its stakeholders and with first nations. That work needs to be done.
1 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
Thank you. If you could expand on that and send that to us in writing, we'd be glad to review that as well. I know you don't have a lot of time to expand on it, but we'd be glad to receive something in writing from you.
I have a question for Ms. Scarfo and Mr. Mirau.
Both of you have referenced the U.S. experience. Ms. Scarfo, you talked about the fact that you're taking mostly U.S. fish. Mr. Mirau, you talked about the U.S. experience and what the Americans did to protect and restore salmon stocks.
If you could both perhaps respond, what is it that we haven't done in Canada specifically that the U.S. has done successfully to ensure that its salmon stocks remain healthy, whether it's in Washington state or up in Alaska?
1:05 p.m.
President, West Coast Trollers Association, As an Individual
I think they've made it a priority and they've made the investment. They're removing dams on the Columbia. They put money into enhancement and mass hatchery programs in Alaska. Salmon has been recognized as a social and cultural driver and has taken priority over many other interests, until recently. I think Pebble Mine is a major concern in the U.S. with the present government.
I think overall, historically the Americans have had owner-operator type policies in their fisheries and they've recognized that small community-based fisheries are a large part of what keeps a location like Alaska alive. It's basically a commitment and an investment.
1:05 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Aero Trading Co. Ltd.
You could answer that yourself by going to the DFO website and then looking at the Alaska Department of Fish and Game website. There's much more transparency, predictability about run size, communication with fishermen and communication with industry. Industry knows beforehand what the plan is and what the allocation process is.
In B.C. here, we are increasingly in the dark. Sometimes DFO officials tell us they're not allowed to tell us because of court decisions or reconciliation discussions. It's a lack of information, a lack of proper stock assessment and a lack of data, culminating.... You may know that B.C. no longer has marine stewardship certification on our salmon. Yes, we suspended it as an industry, but it's because DFO has not followed up on its end of the bargain to provide stock assessment and data required for us to hold it.
You can see it by looking at the websites. It will become clear to you.
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
Thank you.
Ms. Scarfo, you suggested that there has to be disaster relief for your industry. We know that the commercial processors and harvesters have a special fund or special funds that address the impact of COVID on their industries. The disaster relief you're referring to is much broader than just COVID, I assume.
1:05 p.m.
President, West Coast Trollers Association, As an Individual
Yes, absolutely.
There's no doubt about it. COVID has an impact on everyone. It has an impact on our industry. It has an impact on how we can fish, how we can deliver fish and where we move fish to. Our buyers are not wanting to deliver to the States if they don't have to, and I don't blame them. We don't have the infrastructure and the capacity in some of these regions to even handle the fishery.
We knew that this year with COVID there were going to be impacts. The program that was put out, which basically is a maximum of $10,000, doesn't cover your annual fixed costs of moorage insurance and maintenance on your boat. It's not going to do much. It doesn't provide enough on top of the relief that is needed because we have had previous years of hardship. Basically, COVID is like the last straw on top of everything else. I think the disaster relief that's needed is much more comprehensive and broader reaching.
1:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
I'm sorry, Mr. Fast. We've gone way over time. Hopefully, you'll get in some more questions.
We'll now go to Mr. Hardie for five minutes or less, please.
1:05 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Thank you again, Mr. Chair.
Dan and Kathy, talk to us about foreign fishing and illegal unregulated fishing. Do you see that as also affecting the health of our stocks?
Let's start with Dan.
1:05 p.m.
Fisher, West Coast Aquatic, As an Individual
I'm not an expert on illegal fisheries. I don't think that illegal fishing at the Canadian level within the 200-mile limit is necessarily a problem here in Canada.
Foreign ownership is definitely an issue that has been raised repeatedly and has been raised in the FOPO discussions. We've asked for very simple tracking. All you have to do to start that—
1:05 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Dan, I'm sorry. I'm talking about foreign vessels catching fish. We see pictures of these large factory vessels scooping up everything that's alive, and probably a bunch that isn't. Do you see that as a problem?
1:05 p.m.
Fisher, West Coast Aquatic, As an Individual
If you read a book called The Outlaw Ocean, you will see that there's been an increase overall on water fishing, but it's not evident here specifically within the 200-mile limit. Where there are examples of it impacting our salmon as they travel well offshore, that may possibly be a problem. There are people looking into that right now, actually, and there have been some studies on it.