Evidence of meeting #4 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Rebecca Reid  Regional Director General, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Jen O'Donoughue  Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Andrew Thomson  Regional Director, Fisheries Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Good morning, everyone.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and our study on the state of the Pacific salmon, today we have departmental officials here to talk about that issue. I believe Big Bar is part of it.

We have with us, Jen O'Donoughue, assistant deputy minister and chief financial officer; Ms. Rebecca Reid, regional director general, Pacific region; and Andrew Thomson, regional director, fisheries management.

I know that some of you have been here before committee many times. Welcome.

Ms. Reid, I believe you're giving the opening remarks, for 10 minutes or less, please.

8:45 a.m.

Rebecca Reid Regional Director General, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Good morning, Mr. Chairman and committee members.

I'm very happy to be here and to have the opportunity to speak with you today.

Good morning everyone.

As already introduced, my name is Rebecca Reid. I'm the regional director general for DFO, Pacific region. I'm joined by my colleagues Ms. Jennifer O'Donoughue, chief financial officer in the national capital region, and Mr. Andrew Thomson, regional director, fisheries management, Pacific DFO.

I would like to thank the members of the committee for their invitation and the opportunity to update everyone on the department's efforts to restore safe fish passage at the Big Bar landslide site on the Fraser River and our ongoing work to protect and restore the health of wild Pacific salmon stocks.

Since we became aware of it, the Big Bar landslide has been an urgent priority for DFO at both the national and regional levels. Late last June, we became aware of a massive rock slide in a remote section of the Fraser River. This slide has posed and continues to pose unprecedented challenges to the ecosystem and to those who rely on it.

During a year when we saw historically low returns of sockeye salmon and at a time when many Fraser chinook stocks and steelhead were already a grave concern, it made a bad situation worse. The slide blocked the passage of many of these returning stocks, increasing the risk to conservation of these key species. It severely constrained the access for those first nations who rely on these fish for their food, social and ceremonial needs, as well as causing broader societal and economic hardships for indigenous people, recreational and commercial harvesters and the general public.

The response to the Big Bar slide was in many ways remarkable.

Within days of learning of the slide, indigenous leaders and staff from DFO, the Canadian Coast Guard and the Province of British Columbia met to establish a unified incident command post to oversee the recovery work. This collaboration created close, sustainable and dynamic working relationships within the governments of Canada, British Columbia and the many affected first nations. There was also sustained involvement with and outreach to the wider community of involved stakeholders to keep them informed and to seek input.

The response over the summer directly involved several hundred people and many more indirectly. Experts were engaged in project management, engineering, fish habitat and enhancement, science and biology.

While DFO took the federal lead to respond to the rock slide, as the summer work ended and we transitioned to a project to be managed, we realized that we needed expert help and advice about how to respond to the massive challenges ahead.

Supported by our colleagues at Public Services and Procurement Canada, we issued a request for information on November 27, 2019, which received a high level of interest and input from qualified and experienced companies and individuals. Public Services and Procurement Canada then initiated an expedited competitive bidding process on December 12.

On December 31, 2019, Peter Kiewit Sons ULC was awarded a $17.6-million contract to undertake extensive remediation efforts at the site throughout the winter months. This work began in early January 2020.

On January 17, Minister Jordan and Parliamentary Secretary Terry Beech travelled to the Big Bar landslide to see first-hand the ongoing work to address the slide and to meet with the High Bar and Stswecem'c Xgat'tem first nations and the Fraser Salmon Management Council. The minister affirmed to them and has since reaffirmed that the slide remains top of mind for the Government of Canada and an ongoing urgent priority for the department.

Last week, I had the opportunity to tour the site with colleagues from DFO and PSPC to see the work in progress and to meet with the two first nation groups who live in close proximity to the slide.

If I may, Mr. Chairman, I am going to go through the major contract winter work that is under way 24-7 to achieve as much rock removal as possible in this short time window, despite adverse wind, weather and locational logistics. I'm also going to cover two technical teams of experts assembled from government stakeholder groups, non-profit organizations and academia, who are helping to shape the comprehensive contingency and remediation plans for alternate fish passage and conservation-based enhancement if the winter work cannot achieve full fish passage by the spring freshet, which is expected within weeks.

Because of the time constraints that I have and because I could probably talk about this for an hour, my plan is to quickly run you through the presentation and then, as questions come up, come back to those points of interest to you. If I'm going too quickly, please consider the questions and we can come back to any of this.

I'll direct your attention to the first picture in front of you. This is the current state of the slide, and I'll explain a bit more about it.

First, for those of you who aren't familiar with the situation, the picture on the left side is from the summer. In an effort to show you what the site looked like before and after the slide, the red dotted line indicates the area where the landslide occurred. The submerged debris is causing conditions at higher flow rates that are preventing natural fish passage.

This is a very busy slide, but it speaks to three major time frames: the summer period, when an incident command post was set up; the fall, when the contract was awarded to Peter Kiewit; and the winter key points, when equipment was mobilized to the site and the groundbreaking on January 14. There's a lot of detail in there, but we can come back to it as you ask questions about what's been going on.

This essentially shows a bird’s-eye view of the site again. It's at very low water conditions, so it's in the winter. We can see a lot of the rocks. I want to point out a couple of key features, because crews are making steady progress.

If you look at number one, the Razorback, a road has been built to the site. It's incredibly remote. One of the major difficulties was getting equipment access, so a road was cut through an area called the Razorback, and you can see it there as number two. It's in place now.

You can see, in number four, the in-channel access and debris, showing the rockfall and where the obstruction occurs. This is a highly unstable location. There's been a need to install rockfall protection mesh. This is a major and significant job, and takes considerable time.

If you look at number five, the East Toe, this area on the river is currently being blasted to create more width for the water.

Finally, I'd like to point out the high line, for those of you who are into daring deeds. Because of the high winds and difficulty getting into the area, the company has installed a wire to transport equipment and people across. It's pretty exciting.

This is just to give you a sense of where we are now. The water is very low. Some blasting has been done—and here's a nice picture of it—and the result of that is the East Toe being clipped off. Since then, there's been another blast. Those three major boulders are in there, as well. I think the last one has been blasted apart. The idea is to remove rock to improve flow conditions to allow for natural fish passage.

Next we have a team of experts doing hydrological analyses of the area. This is a picture of a model that essentially demonstrates that even if Kiewit is able to do everything we've asked of them, under the current situation we don't believe that fish will be able to pass. This shows what happens when the water flows up high. You're going to have impeded fish passage.

The last thing I want to talk to you about very quickly is our contingency plan.

We are exploring a number of ideas to put into place. One is to create a natural-like fish passageway. We're looking at a fish pump system. Then we will be undertaking enhancement and continuous monitoring to evaluate the situation. Of course there are risks and uncertainties that we can talk about, but I'll leave it at that for now.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you, Ms. Reid.

Now we'll go to questioning. Hopefully, anything you didn't get a chance to highlight will come out in the questioning.

First, for six minutes, we'll go to the Conservative Party and Mr. Arnold.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I may share part of my time with other colleagues here, but I will try to get through some questions fairly quickly.

Thank you, all, for being here today, by the way. This is extremely important for the salmon and the people who rely on them all through British Columbia, not just on the Fraser. There are many communities that rely on those salmon up and down the coast.

Ms. Reid, I'll get right down to brass tacks. You made a comment in your opening that it made a bad situation worse. How bad was the situation before the Big Bar slide?

8:55 a.m.

Regional Director General, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Rebecca Reid

In 2009 the department was facing a very serious situation as it related to the return to the Fraser of sockeye. We had predicted a run that simply did not materialize. Where we had expected between two and four million fish to return, in the end, less than 600,000 of those fish returned.

At the same time we have a number of chinook species that are at risk, and we have very significant concerns for steelhead in the area as well. Just to explain, not all those fish have to cross the Big Bar area. Some of them do turn off before, so it's important to distinguish between the fish that must pass and the fish that don't have to.

We did have at least one very healthy stock of abundant fish that mercifully turned naturally off before the Big Bar slide. In any series of populations of salmon, you're going to have a mix of healthy and abundant, and less abundant.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

You have to manage for the least abundant in fisheries openings and....

8:55 a.m.

Regional Director General, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Rebecca Reid

We have to certainly take into account the stocks that are returning at the time. Because they come back at different times and we have a good idea of the returns and their timing, we're able to understand, through historical information and through testing and genetic information, what stocks are in the area at what times.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you.

You also mentioned the expedited competitive bidding process that opened up in November. How open was that, how many companies participated and how open for viewing was the information to companies?

9 a.m.

Regional Director General, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Rebecca Reid

I'll just ask Jen to respond to that question.

9 a.m.

Jen O'Donoughue Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Thank you very much.

It was an expedited process, but we managed to keep the process as open as possible. We started with a request for information and had 38 respondents. They submitted information. Not all of those respondents submitted full proposals. Some just indicated the skills they could provide.

Based on that, we did an evaluation of the 38, and we did what we would call a targeted tender to five of those proposals. What we did see was a lot of the different proposals. They put their names on the Buyandsell.gc.ca website and ended up joining some of the other bidders as they went through the process.

In the end we did have five people participate in the structured tender process.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you.

Ms. Reid, you mentioned that there is a possibility or even a probability that full fish passage may not be possible even after the work that is being conducted right now, and you mentioned the possibility of an alternative fish passage.

On the construction of an alternative fish passage, how much vertical variance is there in the river at that location? What are the elevations and so on? How much of this could end up being taken out, should we have a flood situation down the Fraser?

9 a.m.

Regional Director General, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Rebecca Reid

Last summer when we discovered the rock slide, there was about a five-metre drop, so that was what the fish were experiencing at the time. Since Kiewit has been in there blowing up rocks, we will have to see what it looks like at high water conditions. It should be better, so we're going to have to evaluate that.

Right now it's extremely low water, so you don't have that drop. The velocity is much lower.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

There must be some predictions as to an extreme flood level situation on the Fraser. Is the work and the bench that's being built above those levels, or would it be at risk of being washed away should we have an extreme flood situation?

9 a.m.

Regional Director General, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Rebecca Reid

That's an excellent question. It really comes to our contingency planning.

We can anticipate certain hydrology in the area, and we can see when we can expect fish to pass and when they are unable to. The question really is this: What is the velocity going to be like in the river, based on the work that's done, and are the mitigation measures—

9 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

To go back to my question, is the platform in the work area that's being constructed right now at risk of being under flood water should we have an extreme flood situation?

9 a.m.

Regional Director General, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Rebecca Reid

The answer is that the contingencies we've built anticipate their becoming under water as time progresses. We have a series of contingencies that anticipate rising water. The first one is that we intend to create a fishway, which we expect will be flooded.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

With only 15 seconds left to go, I will pass. I'm sure my colleagues will have further questions.

Thank you.

9 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

We will now go to Mr. Hardie for six minutes or less.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and good morning.

How did we find out about this slide? It appears to be in a very remote location. How far away is the nearest settlement or community of any size?

9 a.m.

Regional Director General, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Rebecca Reid

Lillooet is about 60 kilometres from this site. We were informed by a river rafter who was on the river and noticed the slide.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

Got it. Was that in June?

9 a.m.

Regional Director General, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Rebecca Reid

That was in June. That's right.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

Describe the first response and the timeline you laid out. I would imagine the timing of the fish runs factored into your calculation of what needed to be done by when.

9 a.m.

Regional Director General, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Rebecca Reid

That's correct. As soon as we heard about the incident, we set up this incident command post and immediately started taking action. The response we were able to do was to start to secure the site and make sure it was safe. We started to look into fish transport opportunities. We also started to try to design a natural fishway to improve the passage of fish in the area. It was a multipronged response over the summer period.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

How many runs were affected by the slide before you even got to it?